#151  
Old 11-06-2016, 10:57 PM
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Ceno Ceno is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathanious View Post
If I ever find myself bored, and with Ceno's permission, I could attempt to balance the class for the DAIL environment.
You have my permission to undertake any amount of work for yourself that you want, so long as I have permission to look at what you do and take notes.
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  #152  
Old 11-06-2016, 11:03 PM
Henusbertus Henusbertus is offline
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Originally Posted by NoxMortem View Post
Iceblock also renders you unable to act. It only is really extreme in a retaliation build. Based on its ret bonus that is the whole idea behind it.
To be completely immune to dmg all the fucking time is ridiculous.
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  #153  
Old 11-06-2016, 11:26 PM
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Kathanious Kathanious is offline
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Originally Posted by Henusbertus View Post
To be completely immune to dmg all the fucking time is ridiculous.
Meh, it's ok to play a strong class every now and then. My Demo+Earth is pretty crazy yet fun.

My test character is a Nightblade/Frost Knight. Serious OP but it's needed to plow for the purpose of testing.

My challenging character is Shaman + Dream.

Perhaps our Jet-Fueled Tester, Nox, could put together a spreadsheet listing classes/combos by difficulty?
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  #154  
Old 11-07-2016, 12:00 AM
Henusbertus Henusbertus is offline
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Originally Posted by Kathanious View Post
Meh, it's ok to play a strong class every now and then. My Demo+Earth is pretty crazy yet fun.

My test character is a Nightblade/Frost Knight. Serious OP but it's needed to plow for the purpose of testing.

My challenging character is Shaman + Dream.

Perhaps our Jet-Fueled Tester, Nox, could put together a spreadsheet listing classes/combos by difficulty?
I know everyon has his/her own taste, but i find it somehow ridiculous to implement stuff to make you invincible.
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  #155  
Old 11-07-2016, 12:24 AM
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Kathanious Kathanious is offline
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Well, it appears the biggest bugs with DAIL are finally coming to a close.

Balancing may be the next phase.

Here I was, trying to get DAIL solid so I could focus on my own projects, and I keep getting sucked in.
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  #156  
Old 11-07-2016, 09:38 AM
NoxMortem NoxMortem is offline
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What happens when two people play in multiplayer with slightly different DAIL versions? I assume it will be "anything could happen" but for example between 58.2F and 58.3 there were only minor differences. What would happen if one had updated without the knowledge of the other. Will it make a difference who hosts the game?

Quote:
Perhaps our Jet-Fueled Tester, Nox, could put together a spreadsheet listing classes/combos by difficulty?
I believe that would not make much sense. For one I believe anyone who has put the time I have put in all the masteries in a single mastery would have much more knowledge about it. I can more talk about design and difference about masteries than about balancing in late/combinations.

Also my view would differ very much from Henusbertus view. For example:

Blade Barrier: 35s Cooldown, 3 seconds immortality, 44 Ret Piericing Damage, 150 heal/second, +15% retaliation damage
Ice Block: 30s Cooldown, 6 seconds immortiality, 102 Ret Cold Damage, Celestial Boon (-0.5 Seconds Cooldown when hit -> 48 hits are a full CD reset. It has a 0.5 seconds cooldown therefore you could only get 24 hits and a reduction by 12 seconds instead of the full 48), +100% Retaliation Damage

It is clear that Ice Block is completly OP from the first glimpse. It does everything Blade Barrier does and has an insane celestial attached. The Celestial is just ridiculous as it does not only reduce the CD of Ice Block but of all active CDs. Also the 100% retaliation bonus compared to the 15% is just... bogus. A skill which excells in every single aspect at an insane level is obviously too strong. However, you are not "forever immortal" as there is a 12 second window where you can be killed. Combine that with Blade Barrier you can make it permanent because you can alternate and the Celestial Boon does decrease both cooldowns and therefore doubles.

I see it as: This mastery needs a rework - not as he does: This mastery needs to be removed.

The big problem I see is, that you have more than enough work with just merging DAIL. Keeping everything running. If you would have to balance every mastery, and this means balance it after every update to that mastery again, this adds a shitload of work. I think it is better to keep the balancing load where it belongs: The mod author. My personal view would be, that you should stick to DAIL specifics and if the mod author is either not interested (which is fine!) or will not for any reason bring the mastery to a good level of balance, then you should just kick the mastery out. As we have seen 30 mastery slots seam to be a big problem for some modders (Asylum has stated that for example). I know many mod authors might not see it that way but for me Grimarillion and DAIL are prestige-mods. A mastery should have to earn it's place in such a compilation. It was said before: A mastery which is not in a compilation is much less likely to ever be seen.

The real question is, and I have to doubt that from all the testing I have seen: Are there really that many good masteries out there? Asylum has stated he has MANY masteries to bring over but as I see it all but the vanilla masteries are still work in progress. None of those masteries is polished to a level where we could say: That is the same level we have seen with the vanilla masteries (and that does not even mean those are perfectly balanced - something which can not be done unless everything is made completly boring and equal!).

I know this has been davoods vision for DAIL and I do not want to speak directly against that but I think DAIL should not be anymore about bringing "as many masteries over as possble". This was achieved for the moment. You have hit the 30 masteries limit some time ago. Now it should be about "what are the best 30 masteries DAIL could have". This is the reason I try to give feedback. I love the mod and I have a lot of fun. I hope during the time I play GD it will reach a level where it is not critically bugged anymore (all skills/items/modifiers working) and just at SOME level of balance (no mastery so far over top like the engineer, no single skill completly ridiculous as the Ice Block). That's all I would personally wish for. If there is a cool OP combination you can find with a lot of combining, items, testing, devotions that is okay. It can be fun to "break the game" but it should be the end of a long road not the immediate glimpse at the skill description.

Maybe you can share some insights about how someone could help with DAIL in a meaningful way. I can program and likely others too but from what I have seen I am not sure if I am willing to participate in something which looks that tedious. From the outside it does not look like the way mods are handled in GD are that inviting: Which makes me even more happy you do it instead of me If there is a way I can help you balance the mods in a sustainable way which does not break with every new update of the original mastery, I would like to help you do so. Until then I will stick to just write bug reports when I see something and write in the mod authors and the DAIL thread when I see some skill/mastery has some problems. As this is work I just wish we can get some open and clean way to see which masteries will stay in DAIL or be kicked. I don't want to invest time in a mastery testing it when I know it will be kicked with the next version.

Last edited by NoxMortem; 11-07-2016 at 10:14 AM.
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  #157  
Old 11-07-2016, 11:02 AM
Henusbertus Henusbertus is offline
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Played few hours "nightmare" today.

Have to say it is way better than grimmest or stuff.

- harder fights
- less screens of trash to kill
- less drops, which makes items more valuable

The direction you are going with nightmare seems to be the right one.
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  #158  
Old 11-08-2016, 02:39 AM
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Kathanious Kathanious is offline
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Let's decide on a slot for rotation. I would like to use #30, but the new witch doctor moved in and I don't want to rotate it out this soon.

@Nox I agree with everything you said. DAIL was initially conceived as a compilation for the purpose of multiplayer compatibility. I haven't really thought much about the future of DAIL other than stability. Now that it has reached this point I'm not sure what I want to do. Jiaco and I have talked a little about this. It may be time to seek his counsel again.
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Last edited by Kathanious; 11-08-2016 at 02:45 AM.
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  #159  
Old 11-08-2016, 06:22 AM
lavexis lavexis is offline
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In my opinion i think some of the summoner classes are a bit too strong. Coronus pet for example can tank many hits and still hit as hard.

its very easy to plow through the game in normal mode and elite with summoner classes, but i notice some noticeable drop in their performance once they reach ultimate mode.
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  #160  
Old 11-08-2016, 08:19 AM
NoxMortem NoxMortem is offline
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Interesting. I just played the coronus yesterday and while the summons deal a lot of damage I have a problem keeping them alive on Grimmest. It usually takes quite a few runs against the hero blobs in Grimmest until I reach a damage income which does not kill them, then it becomes easy because he has so many strong summons.

As soon as I hit Alpha Centauri they became much more durable as he regeneration is way stronger than the difficult to target heal. Now I feel actually pretty strong

Last edited by NoxMortem; 11-08-2016 at 11:03 AM.
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