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  #41  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:22 PM
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Aldebaran Aldebaran is offline
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Originally Posted by Saw View Post
You said that 1h Savagery + Shield will be ok when Oathkeeper comes out. I replied, that I think that most people won't be using Savagery, but will rather be using the Oathkeeper's new auto-attack instead. Hope this makes it more clear
Maybe just for a lightning damage Archon. Although 2H version with brute force and savagery modifier seems more appealing in that aspect. For S&B, Oathkeeper's AA will probably be preferred, as it's easier to convert fire to physical and the other way around
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  #42  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Aldebaran View Post
Maybe just for a lightning damage Archon. Although 2H version with brute force and savagery modifier seems more appealing in that aspect. For S&B, Oathkeeper's AA will probably be preferred, as it's easier to convert fire to physical and the other way around
I guess we'll actually have to wait for FG and see how Oathkeeper's auto-attack performs and see which gear options will we get.
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  #43  
Old 02-11-2019, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mad_lee View Post
Well, my opinion is backed by my experience in Grim Dawn. And I've made quite a few top-tier builds - it's something that requires some understanding of how skills work and a lot of testing.
Oh, guess I messed with the wrong person.

I personally got no single build exposed on forums as I don't care nor interested. Meanwhile did shitload of various melee builds in my 5K playtime in this game, being the preffered playstile.

I can also do the simple math while familiar with skill mechanics, hence realize why savagery can eventually do better with higher WD (in a vaccum). 2H melee and ranged. Also the transmuter - it's big.
Nevertheless, when it's about 1H/DW shit's off. FS compensates lower WD with higher flat damage stacks, being AoE for faster clear speed, being supported by a huge MI, with juicy and versatile skill line, supported better by items.

I don't favor FS, nor shit over Savagery btw. As I already said they are both mediocre positioned in quite identical spectrum of power.
FS is more general purpose, Savagery can shine with certain setups and damage types.

But statements that 1H/DW Savagery is superior to FS, is what makes the thin line between a theorycrafter and a forum clown. It's a trap.

Last edited by hellcat; 02-11-2019 at 10:23 PM.
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  #44  
Old 02-11-2019, 10:42 PM
mad_lee mad_lee is offline
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I am not even talking about 1H builds, man. Like that point is irrelevant, there is no effecient one-handed sword and board MELEE firestrike build or savagery build, there is 0 need for those builds since Shield is handled by everything Soldier.

But my dude, have you tried Tricksters? DW-tricksters are one of the most powerful characters in the game. I have tried both Sabouters and Tricksters with Nex and Ortus setups and Sabouters don't even come close. Yes, Korba and Wind Devils make this happen, but then I also played full Deathmarked Trickster with Lightning DW Savagery and it's still an insanely powerful build.

Here are some examples: N&O Trickster 8 seconds MQ kill, N&O Trickster 5:35 Crucible Gladiator 150-170 clear, this is Deathmarked Trickster killing Lokarr in 19 seconds. Oh and DW Bleeding Trickster also destroys content.

So yeah, Savagery is in a great place currently with the exception of DW Lightning. Because let's leave 1h/Shield builds to Soldier and Oathkeeper, neither Savagery nor Firestrike were meant to be S&B skills (except with that one ranged set for Fire Strike).
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  #45  
Old 02-11-2019, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mad_lee View Post
I am not even talking about 1H builds, man. Like that point is irrelevant, there is no effecient one-handed sword and board MELEE firestrike build or savagery build, there is 0 need for those builds since Shield is handled by everything Soldier.
The entire thread is dedicated to 1H melee savagery, by judging from the title and the OP

So you are basically saying that the only viable S&B builds will be based on Soldier (and then Cadence)? That is in line what I commented earlier today, that I do not really think the problem is solely in Savagery, but there there is no other Shield mastery in GD (which is kinda sad, since we have tons and tons of DW and 2H melee builds).
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  #46  
Old 02-11-2019, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by malawiglenn View Post
The entire thread is dedicated to 1H melee savagery, by judging from the title and the OP

So you are basically saying that the only viable S&B builds will be based on Soldier (and then Cadence)? That is in line what I commented earlier today, that I do not really think the problem is solely in Savagery, but there there is no other Shield mastery in GD (which is kinda sad, since we have tons and tons of DW and 2H melee builds).
I am pretty sure that Saw also meant dual wielding builds. I even think he mostly meant dual wielding builds. Because nobody needs Savagery with a shield (except maybe tanky bleeding warder). Nobody needs a demolitionist swining 1 weapon in melee with the shield.
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  #47  
Old 02-11-2019, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mad_lee View Post
I am pretty sure that Saw also meant dual wielding builds. I even think he mostly meant dual wielding builds. Because nobody needs Savagery with a shield (except maybe tanky bleeding warder). Nobody needs a demolitionist swining 1 weapon in melee with the shield.
The OP basically said that the DW savagery is good except that it offers very few dmg types, and that 1H non dw is UNPLAYABLE.


Need and need, isn't it all about build diversity in the end? I kinda miss the Holy shock, Fire, Freeze Paladins from Diablo II.

What if there were shields that drastically could alter Savagery (and Fire Strike)? Like total damage modified by 15-20%, total speed increase, flat damages etc. Or if those skills had a transmuter "when using a shield, shield recovery time -10%" or something.

I would like to be able to make more S&B based builds simply because I like to play them. DW is melee meta
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mad_lee View Post
I am pretty sure that Saw also meant dual wielding builds. I even think he mostly meant dual wielding builds. Because nobody needs Savagery with a shield (except maybe tanky bleeding warder). Nobody needs a demolitionist swining 1 weapon in melee with the shield.
Yes, as malawiglenn said, this thread isn't about saying that Savagery is underpowered or smth, it's about how UNBALANCED 1h Savagery is. The gap between cold and other damage type Savageries is huge and I want to highlight this problem in this thread. I honestly don't understand how this can be called "Savagery is in a great place currently".

Do you know why nobody needs S&B Savagery? Because everybody knows that it's bad and that it's impossible to make a good build with it. I personaly would like to see Savagery perform well this EVERY possible melee set-up and not being stuck with 2h weapons and VERY few DW options. As I've already said in the OP, I simply can't understand why Cadance is allowed to be good with every melee set-up (and most damage types) and Savagery isn't.

Last edited by Saw; 02-12-2019 at 05:13 AM.
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  #49  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:29 AM
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I think through development certain archetypes were made when it came to the dual mastery system. Savagery + Aether Damage for example isn't really seen because way back when Soldier + Arcanist was generally seen as "the melee magic combo" - before Shaman was even released. So in some cases the itemization combining with the dual mastery system doesn't fit every scenario most likely due to a case of some oversight + GD's Theorycrafting Nightmare of Infinite Builds

In any case I decided to waste some time theorycrafting some builds for fun.

Bleeding Damage Dual Melee

Lightning Damage Dual Melee

Lightning Damage Shield Variant

Lightning Damage Dual Range
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  #50  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:41 PM
somnium somnium is offline
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Originally Posted by Saw View Post
Yes, as malawiglenn said, this thread isn't about saying that Savagery is underpowered or smth, it's about how UNBALANCED 1h I personaly would like to see Savagery perform well this EVERY possible melee set-up and not being stuck with 2h weapons and VERY few DW options. As I've already said in the OP, I simply can't understand why Cadance is allowed to be good with every melee set-up (and most damage types) and Savagery isn't.
Cadence is massive outlier in terms of the setups and damage types its supports. I could use the same argument for nearly any skill (including Fire Strike). Franky I would disagree with the notion that any skill should support any damage and weapon setup equality well, that would result in a rather bland game IMO. I would rather see Cadence nerfed then for Savagery to be buffed to such levels as well.

On topic:

Its true in my expedience that that 1H Melee savagery(just like fire strike) is a bit too terrible compared to 2H and dualwield melee but the crux of the issue in my eyes is not so much a lack of damage but that non solder classes cannot take much advantage of the defensive properties of a shield.

I think it's fine that 1H builds deal less damage in general then dual wield and 2H builds. Nor do I see it as a problem that cadence is better for 1H compared to Fire strike and savagery as different skills can and should specialize in different things. Not everything should be the same, different skills and combat styles should have their own strengths and weaknesses IMO.

The problem occurs when basically you lose decent chuck of dps and gain a rather negligible amount of defense in return, making it not so much a trade of but more like a penalty.
This is case for most non soldier builds when they op to use a shield. Comparing s&b with 2H and dual wield its seems to me that there is a clear imbalance how useful the combat styles are outside the mastery that boost them. Imagine how restrictive the game would be if 2H and dual wield melee had a similar game balance in that they would be nearly useless outside of the shaman and nightblade mastery respectively.

Last edited by somnium; 02-12-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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