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Old 03-24-2017, 09:50 AM
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Alright Chthon, my fellow gentleman, let's discuss the political, ethical and moral standpoints on which the cult of Chthon operates.

Let's see, you are saying we can justify the cult's actions because they are trying to revive their god. I can certainly live with them trying to resurrect their deity, nothing wrong in the core thinking of that, however...

1) The methods. The primal example of the line "Goal justifies the means". I definitely disagree with this statement, because, of course, it promotes the idea of zealots. You see, they are dangerous precisely because they are zealots. They kill people, they plunder the land, defile everything's important to other people. A group of fanatics, based purely on religious beliefs is basically what today's islam is. Terrorists.

2) The prologue. So you are saying we can forgive them because Empyrion and other were faggots that killed poor Chthon who did nothing wrong. But, we actually don't know shit about what happened during the God's War. Yeah, Empyrion took the Spear of Heavens and killed Chthon, but have you ever thought about REASONS, which he based his judgement upon? Not only that, from the looks of it, all other gods supported him. There was no disagreement that something's maybe wrong, no. They all went and killed him. Don't you find this a little bit suspicious?

3) Creation. So you are saying Chthon must be resurrected. Cool, but what if he decides to destroy everything, when he's up and running? What if he didn't want human in the first place and THAT'S why Empyrion killed him? In this case, all of cult's actions are pointless, futile, since they are literally approaching to their own doom. Or... they are fucking suicide maniacs, which actually make them worse.

4) Moral and ethical ground. So you are saying that people are just shown the truth. But I again, present you the counter-evidence of Avalline's notes. They were just a normal family, loving and united at that. It specifically mentions that people were going for the cult not because of the beliefs, but because the were given shelter... at first. The the indocrination begins. The notes describe the process, pointing to blood rituals and pressuring people by offering them food and protection. Those who disagree are disposed of - Avalline sacrifices her entire family in a bloody massacre. So it goes without saying that people are literally being brainwashed and intimitated. But is it righteous, as people were saying? Can you justify murder? Can you justify killing your own family, because some fucking weirdo in a mask says so? I don't think so. Let me present you with another piece. A small note in Log's tomb. A man found the courage to break free from indocrination. And he quite literally says so - that he was forced to believe. But it TOOK HIM YEARS and sheer power of will to try. Imagine how powerful the process of assimilation is then. Nevertheless, he himself describes the cult as a vile place, so he asks for courage before venturing into battle with them. Truly, a hero.

5) The people. Apart from those who actually believe in Chthon, there are people who do it just for fun, beside believing. I'm talking about Zaria, of course, who founded pleasure in killing innocents. She practically orgasms from the view of blood and such. Can these people be trusted?

TL;DR - Chthon sucks balls, and his cult too.

Addendum: You are also saying that other gods are pretty bad too. Hahaha, I ACTUALLY agree with this! In fact, I consider ALL of them worthless faggots, who didn't try to help humanity at all! I long for eradicating them entirely from Cairn. Humanity must prevail.

Last edited by Autentist; 03-24-2017 at 10:56 AM.
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  #532  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:36 AM
pedlttmedl4u2 pedlttmedl4u2 is offline
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I can agree with most of what you are saying .... however I personally believe when after feeling a great wrong has been done to person "A" they want to get revenge against person "B". When you are dealing with a deity or god as a theory then said revenge which could be completely justified from a certain point of view gets out of hand the consequences could be disastrous. There is a reason why in the war on terror the innocents are called infidels ... its called living in the past and taking your revenge against someone who wasn't even born yet when your ancestors who from their point of view were wronged and decided to raise their kids with revenge and hate. It's a vicious cycle and I for one would love to see instead of complete story ending for it to be left open for a grim dawn 2. I would be even more happy for a grim dawn prequel story game to play out the events mentioned in the lore.
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  #533  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by pedlttmedl4u2 View Post
It's a vicious cycle and I for one would love to see instead of complete story ending for it to be left open for a grim dawn 2. I would be even more happy for a grim dawn prequel story game to play out the events mentioned in the lore.
Hey, excellent point on revenge, missed this out, thanks. I agree that Chthon, or whoever is behind all the cultists, definitely wants revenge, so he raises them zealots in a vicious cycle of constant struggle with both humanity and Aetherials. It's also another negative points towards Chthon, however, it at least somehow explains the actions of cultists more and goes a bit deeper into their philosophical standpoints.

Prequel would be nice, but I don't want the first game to be open-ended. Today developers use this as a justification to basically milk the series. Granted, I know Crate is not like this, but still it smells episodic, so it's a no from me. It's also a big red flag for a game to halt it's production entirely if something happens to the studio, so we would be left hanging. More of my thoughts on this are in the Expansion News thread.
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  #534  
Old 03-24-2017, 11:01 AM
pedlttmedl4u2 pedlttmedl4u2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Autentist View Post
Prequel would be nice, but I don't want the first game to be open-ended. Today developers use this as a justification to basically milk the series. Granted, I know Crate is not like this, but still it smells episodic, so it's a no from me. It's also a big red flag for a game to halt it's production entirely if something happens to the studio, so we would be left hanging. More of my thoughts on this are in the Expansion News thread.
I am normally with you 100%, however with this company and game being funded via a kickstarter and not being a big company with "X" amount of titles being pushed out I have faith that even if a sequel or prequel required another kickstarter to happen it would get done as the fans have clearly said we like this and want more. That is the only reason I feel comfortable with an open or "hanging" ending.
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  #535  
Old 03-24-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pedlttmedl4u2 View Post
I am normally with you 100%, however with this company and game being funded via a kickstarter and not being a big company with "X" amount of titles being pushed out I have faith that even if a sequel or prequel required another kickstarter to happen it would get done as the fans have clearly said we like this and want more. That is the only reason I feel comfortable with an open or "hanging" ending.
I see where are you coming from, and I accept this. It's definitely possible. Well, another reason I would like the conclusive ending more is the probability to explore Cairn after timeskip, when all the threats are quelled. Maybe some new setting with new locations, new technology, eh?

Anyway, this is a Lore thread, so please feel free to discuss this further either in private on in a new thread still, so we will not derail the current thread too much...
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  #536  
Old 03-24-2017, 12:19 PM
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Loke82 Loke82 is offline
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I find it fascinating that a hack and slash arpg can create such a lively discussion about its lore. Its truly a testament to Crate for creating such a vivid and joyful game.
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  #537  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:09 PM
mammothhunter mammothhunter is offline
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Originally Posted by Autentist View Post
Creation. So you are saying Chthon must be resurrected. Cool, but what if he decides to destroy everything, when he's up and running? What if he didn't want human in the first place and THAT'S why Empyrion killed him? In this case, all of cult's actions are pointless, futile, since they are literally approaching to their own doom. Or... they are fucking suicide maniacs, which actually make them worse.
It is a zero sum game over there. Chthon wants the living essence of all beings. If they live, Chthon does not. If Chthon lives, they do not. The ultimate acheivement of being one with Chthon is non-existence.

Its not like denizens of Cairn chose sides, they are aligned with one already by the fact of their birth and moral choices have no play in this. Their deities might be villains and bastards, but they are their kin so to say. In that regard, Chthonic cult is a true heresy.
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  #538  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:51 PM
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It is a zero sum game over there. Chthon wants the living essence of all beings. If they live, Chthon does not. If Chthon lives, they do not. The ultimate acheivement of being one with Chthon is non-existence.

Its not like denizens of Cairn chose sides, they are aligned with one already by the fact of their birth and moral choices have no play in this. Their deities might be villains and bastards, but they are their kin so to say. In that regard, Chthonic cult is a true heresy.
Precisely why he is a threat and should be removed. Also, cultist are really basically suicide maniacs, nice. Or, as I must correct myself here a little, they were forced into being suicide maniacs... huh.

Well, not really. Unlike many other beings, humans are free to choose, that's the whole point of being one. You are not dependant on any supernatural shit, like Chthon or Aetherials, you have a choice to forge your own path. It's a gimmick that persists through countless videogames, and I don't see any reason for it not presenting itself here.
Besides, gods are gone. Witch Gods are gone, Menhir is gone, everyone is missing. I don't think this is a mere coincidence. It's a free ticket for humanity to break their chains.
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  #539  
Old 03-24-2017, 02:45 PM
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Its not like they chose to be born in that place or be born with that blood. But it puts them into "blood for Chthon" category regardless. Some choices are not made willingly. Feel free to suicide yourself if you don't agree, as someone over there might say.
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  #540  
Old 03-24-2017, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mammothhunter View Post
Its not like they chose to be born in that place or be born with that blood. But it puts them into "blood for Chthon" category regardless. Some choices are not made willingly. Feel free to suicide yourself if you don't agree, as someone over there might say.
True, this is because every being in Cairn apart from Aetherials has his blood in his veins. But really, can even him judge living beings such as people without knowing them? We need Empytion on his void ass again.
Also, there was a certain individual who actually broke free...
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