Placeholder Mastery (Specialist)

[Kibou]

In Titan Quest, it was possible to play a character with just one mastery - a Hunter, Defender or Rogue, for example - but it was more of a special challenge like "beat the game without magic items" than a feasible way of playing. At some point, you'd have no choice but to put skill points in useless skills, and even those would be maxed out eventually.

For Grim Dawn, how about a "placeholder" mastery, let's say something called "specialist", that doesn't change your class title and doesn't have a full skill tree, but just 2 or 3 "skills" that allow you to get a small offensive or defensive bonus in exchange for your unneeded skillpoints. It would, of course, be inferior to every real mastery, but it would make playing with just one mastery (plus the placeholder one) a bit more feasible.

[KondaImmortal]

Interesting idea! I really enjoyed multi classing in Titan Quest but always felt that I did not have enough points to get what I needed in it because some first class skills were much easier to obtain by that time.

[lupo29x]

the destinies mod has a mastery just like what you're thinking of.
the training mastery lets you focus on 1 mastery but it also has some good passives spread across the board.

[Tyrack]

I like this idea because this is one choice more for the player. The synergies with 2 masteries are so much a good idea, but, the choice to focus on one, develop the true force of only one chosen mastery, is also really exciting.

For example: Dota 1 and 2, a sceptre can boost the ultimate skill of heroes. It means that the player can choose to focus on this particularity of his character and enjoy to see it take his full power.

[yerkyerk]

Not sure how I feel about this. TQ can actually be completed with a single mastery - the real challenge in TQ is getting as far as possible without choosing any mastery
That's why I think it's unnecessary to add a partial addition.

I can support the idea of a support mastery that boosts the stats from your primary mastery. However, I don't see why it wouldn't change the classname. You are taking an advantage over people who choose not to stick to a single mastery, after all.

[mamba]

Originally Posted by Kibou

For Grim Dawn, how about a "placeholder" mastery, let's say something called "specialist", that doesn't change your class title and doesn't have a full skill tree, but just 2 or 3 "skills" that allow you to get a small offensive or defensive bonus in exchange for your unneeded skillpoints. It would, of course, be inferior to every real mastery, but it would make playing with just one mastery (plus the placeholder one) a bit more feasible.

You were not supposed to have one mastery only, as you say, it is akin to playing with white loot only.

So now you are asking for the equivalent of slightly better stats on the white loot to make this more feasible.... it is not meant to be feasible, it is not meant to be done at all actually.

I don't think there is any reason to put this in. It still is way worse than a second class, so there still is no incentive to use it / it still doesn't make it feasible.

If you want a slightly more feasible 'one class' build, get a second mastery but invest in the mastery only, not skills and ignore the name change.

[mamba]

Originally Posted by yerkyerk

Not sure how I feel about this. TQ can actually be completed with a single mastery - the real challenge in TQ is getting as far as possible without choosing any mastery

lol, the farthest I went was level 10 or so, then it just got boring / slow

[Haaznahnuf]

Originally Posted by yerkyerk

You are taking an advantage over people who choose not to stick to a single mastery, after all.

May be in GD, surely not in TQ (or I don't see why).

Originally Posted by mamba

If you want a slightly more feasible 'one class' build, get a second mastery but invest in the mastery only, not skills and ignore the name change.

These are the only problems.
Plus, the loot tables shall correctly account for that choice ( or at least, to use the ratio of invested skill & mastery points to determine whether you are more of a true necromancer, a pure defender, or a more typical spellbinder ).

With the same leveling system as in TQ, besides the skill points in excess (for some masteries), what you miss when leveling are the attributes, life and energy points you gain when putting skill points in the new mastery's bar.

So, instead of

Originally Posted by Kibou

2 or 3 "skills" that allow you to get a small offensive or defensive bonus

, or a training mastery, one skill per mastery could be enough to compensate for when you have filled your mastery's bar.
I am thinking about a "specialist" skill that gives you the same benefit when you invest one point in it, as when you invest one point in the mastery's bar.
Of course, this skill would be unlocked only when the mastery's bar is filled (uppermost skill), the first point in it would lock the same skill in a second mastery's tree, and it would be capped (in TQ) to level 32.

Then, it is up to you if you want :
- "same" stats as a dual-master, and being "double" skilled (and take an opportunity to develop and experience more skills that were designed to work together, by the way), or
- less stats and being even more skilled (may be maxing all the skills ?).
- any "mixed choice".

If you really need an added incentive to be a specialist, you could add some passives at some critical levels in the specialist's skill (similar as what lupo69x wrote).


All of the above is tightly bound to what a mastery's tree really will be. It seems that GD will be more rich than TQ, and more complex to tune. Basically, if the mastery's bar is filled before you reach the max level, my solution applies.

In TQIT, by level 68, you had circa 200 (222 at level 75) points to distribute, and you could chose to put one third (64) in the masteries' bar and two thirds in the skills. You had to, to unlock the uppermost skills. Now, a balanced build meant circa (100-32=68) points in each mastery's tree, out of circa 190 max (180-200 depending on the mastery), or a 36% completed tree.

Hence the table below (for TQIT):

class :         |   points to allocate   |  in bar(s) |  in skills |  MAX in skills |  Tree's completion
one-mastery     |   c200                 |  32 MAX    |  c168      |  c190          |  88% 
dual-masteries  |   c200                 |  64 MAX    |  c136      |  c380          |  36%/36% or 60%/12%, or ...
one-mastery     |   c200                 |  32 MAX    |  c136      |  c190          |  72%
+ spec. skill   |                        | + 32       |            |                |

Of course, in TQ, you could not go for the uppermost skills, sacrificing stats for skills levels. The same in GD.
For balance considerations, you may wish to not allow a second mastery if that skill is in progress or, to cap the level to (32-level in second mastery) (in TQ), so that you can't gain more stats than if a dual-mastery class.



Last argument : it is not only a matter of choosing stats against power.
While it is understandable for a pure scholar to be less resilient than a pure fighter or a hybrid class, the lack of a second mastery's bar (the main source for life points) makes a specialist fighter less resilient than an hybrid, or even a dual-mastery scholar !

[Luckmann]

Allow us to take the same mastery twice.

Problem solved, feel free to spend points in either tab independently. Dump all your points in the Mastery Point Pool if you just want the stats. Or pick those passive skills twice.

[Kibou]

Originally Posted by mamba

I don't think there is any reason to put this in. It still is way worse than a second class, so there still is no incentive to use it / it still doesn't make it feasible.

If one mastery only builds would be as good as those with two masteries, player might be discouraged from choosing a second mastery - for newbies, it would probably appear easier and less complicated just to go with one mastery. This way, players would miss a lot of the depth of the game, which is clearly undesirable.
On the other hand, giving single mastery builds the disadvantages they suffered from in TQ bereaves the game of several character classes and thus content. Furthermore, If you can't invest your skillpoints anymore because you've maxed all skills in your one mastery, the game basically tells you that the way you play it is wrong and that you should do it different, and I don't think the game should do this unless there are good reasons.

My conclusions are that players should be able to play single mastery builds and still be able to continue character development all the way to the level cap, but that builds with two masteries should clearly be better and newbies should always be encouraged to use those.

My idea is, of course, just one way of dealing with the issue. Another option would be to have a feature that allows player to exchange skill points for attribute points (e.g. a special NPC), or to allow the player to rise the mastery bar beyond level 30 (even though no more skills are unlocked beyond 30).