Adding a 'race' option?

[Haaznahnuf]

A "race" option ?
To add for diversity and personalization by mean of "traits"?
I am not for tribal or factions traits.

Furthermore, I don't want to rant about "races" and "racial" traits here, I will go to the proper sub-forum, very soon.

Humans show off a lot of social diversity, but I am less sure about "ARPG-game mechanics-wise" diversity. GD is about fighting, not socializing and not role-playing.

As regards tribal or factions traits :

To illustrate, with the best will in the world, I fail to figure how every clansman from another tribe/community could have say 10% fire resistance more than I, with same stuff. Normal variance could at best allows for a marginal random adjustment to resistances on an individual basis, not for the whole clan. If you think about remarkable adaptation to environment (polar dwellers, desert dwellers, ...), you are thinking about adaptation to minor temperature differences, not to technological or magical drastic alterations. Well, we could afford a X% variation by traits, but not much more.

AFAIK, human population in GD lore appears to be rather homogeneous. The Warp is rather recent, and it is not as if dozens and dozens of generations had passed, long enough to make isolated desert dwellers in polar climate evolve to polar dwellers. Then, there is no point in asking for tribal traits, as far as environmental pressure is summoned.

As it has been said, the common choice is to not implement the gifted, educational and cultural traits and to consider that all the character's background is already accounted for in the concept of class. Then, you only need to balance the classes (if you want to).

As regards individual traits :

Although a system of penalizing and positive individual traits is a good mean to implement and stimulate the role-play when you lack imagination, even if traits are artificially "balanced" half-good/half-bad (cf. Arcanum), or have to be artificially counterbalanced with other traits (like in some (C)RPGs), it can prove unbalanced, no fair, not rewarding, when there is NO role-play. In GD, I doubt the player will have a role to play, even in MP. He will have a balanced class to play with.

My proposition : individual penalizing traits

Nonetheless, let's go for added diversity.
What if (individual) traits don't have to be balanced ? What about chosen, optional ones, only to add to the challenge as a way to customize the game's difficulty on an individual basis, a way to nerf your hero at will (in addition to making monsters tougher).

So, there would be no balancing consideration, even in MP. If it proves to be too hard, play back on Easy (for the group), or don't play a sick character who is plagued with -20% poison resistance from his background (as an individual).
Or at least, don't choose at the same time "hunter of venomous creatures" as a class !

Anyways...

Finally, if tribal and individual traits are to be implemented (even physical ones), my point is, that they only would be useful and needed if :
(in decreasing order of importance)

1°) They model a variability which is lore-wise.

2°) They really add to immersion (lore-wise being a prerequisite).

3°) They are accounted for in-game, even if only cosmetics.

4°) They don't spoil the game-play experience, both in solo and in MP.

[999]

Originally Posted by frustaro

Have you considered the idea of introducing a new layer of customization by adding different 'races'?
Before choosing any mastery, you chose a 'race' that changes a bit the starting attributes of your character (for example). If you don't want to have races like elves and dwarves, you could also use other escamotage to achieve this (like 'nationality', or 'traits', whatever).

I for one would want to see it all focused down through humans in this game.

But how about "soul root"? The character has found a way to mystically reorder how he's configured spiritually, separating himself out in some way from the rest of humanity, and drawing down and bringing out certain otherwise unavailable forces in so doing. (Not like spells of course - that would be redundant - but something innate that at least subtly affects the player experience, in a 'behind the scenes' way.)
All player characters would be human beings, but there would also be deep fundamental differences between them.

[Luckmann]

My immediate, knee-jerk reaction was "Oh god, no". But the more I think about it.. why not? The question really amounts to what kind of effect it would have on gameplay.

I would imagine that Cairn would have (or had) the same wealth of races, cultures and ethnicities as Earth has - and there's no shortage of settings that have a multitude of races or subraces.

So as much as I would love such a thing as a choice of race in Grim Dawn.. what would the effect be? What changes in ability? Special skills? Faction bonuses? Without knowing anything about the various groups, it's very hard to suggest anything fleshed-out, if you ask me.

But I'd definitely like to see it.

Originally Posted by ASYLUM101

Humanity is the only race on earth, how could you include others? [...]

Humans are a species, not a race. I absolutely hate that so many people seem to apply the fantasy concept of "race" to real life.

Furthermore, Grim Dawn does not take place on Earth.

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by Haaznahnuf

A "race" option ?
Humans show off a lot of social diversity, but I am less sure about "ARPG-game mechanics-wise" diversity. GD is about fighting, not socializing and not role-playing.

Games are different things to different people.

Originally Posted by Haaznahnuf

To illustrate, with the best will in the world, I fail to figure how every clansman from another tribe/community could have say 10% fire resistance more than I, with same stuff. Normal variance could at best allows for a marginal random adjustment to resistances on an individual basis, not for the whole clan. If you think about remarkable adaptation to environment (polar dwellers, desert dwellers, ...), you are thinking about adaptation to minor temperature differences, not to technological or magical drastic alterations. Well, we could afford a X% variation by traits, but not much more.

I think you'll find that environmental and societal factors can have a rather larger impact than you give credit for. It's well known for instance that poor nutrition can severely affect a persons growth and cause them to be far weaker physically than someone with ample food. It's easy to see how this could be applied to a world such as GD where it's been torn by war and food is presumably scarce. A survivor town founded by a rich baron with large food stores or a paranoid schizophrenic who stockpiled canned food for the end of the world would mean a better fed survivor population that was physically more strong.

Or lets take location of the camp into account, another survivor camp was founded when survivors took refuge in an old city library, the townsfolk hardly venture out and are surrounded by books which are their only source of entertainment/activity. These people would likely be better at learning and problem solving than other camps.

One final example is a camp founded by a martial arts expert, who may impart martial arts training on the inhabitants who sought refuge at his dojo, they therefore may be better than average at hand to hand or close quarters combat.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head of the kind of thing I was thinking of in my earlier post. Whether Medierra decides to implement something like this (I suspect not), I've tried to present a way in which it could be done that would a) fit with the lore b) add a bit of spice for those of us that like story elements and c) shouldn't require too much additional development time.

[manadren]

Ok, so different races probably aren't a good idea. The tribes\faction idea doesn't seem to be so bad though. Actually I'd think it would be kinda neat if you could be born into a faction, as this could work into the already planned faction system. Being born into faction x could immediately put you in a bad position with faction y, or instantly make you allies with faction z.

As for faction traits, I can see the argument against certain types of buffs as the physiological differences are not going to be that great. You can talk about epigenetics and how the habits and environment of a group can actually have a fairly major effect their offspring, but the big ones probably take more time than the lore can provide. You could however give the player, say, a +1 bonus to certain skills. Skills are essentially learned traits, so you could say they were taught by the faction. In the grand scheme of things this would mean that the faction bonus doesn't amount to much, but it does add to the character background by fitting them within the lore a bit better.

[Haaznahnuf]

Originally Posted by Puffy

Games are different things to different people.

Don't take be wrong. I am for added RPG content in GD, as much implemented as possible.
But I learned here, what a ARPG should be. You know, fight, loot and level.

Nonetheless, you mark a point, and you should have added an easier access to material (sold) goods for some merchant factions.
If some people want playable initial factions, this choice would surely change the initial town, as well as the initial faction dispositions. I am no sure if Crate is willing to go that way, as you say. For sure, varied origins could add to the game, if a few low-level starting areas could be designed.

But again, it seems, that educational background experience is included in the concept of class. Obviously, you have very few chances to end as an occultist in a faction which don't values libraries and research. Conversely, you can hardly become a gladiator in a faction which despises physical training as a cultural trait. When I say "value" and "despise", I mean "as much as it can influence your character" up to the point to be meaningful, attribute- or skill-wise.
Of course, you could be trained in both masteries in every culturally balanced faction.
By the way, should a mastery be faction-dependant ? Why not, it would be so RPGish, as you'll have to visit a faction to unlock it.

3°) They are accounted for in-game, even if only cosmetics.

Now I am not sure how GD could account for a warrior being raised amongst librarians. How a literate warrior could perform better in a ARPG ? That was my point of view.

As regards to human NPCs and quests factions, the examples you give should bring no edge in a fight. Merchants' inventories and prices, quest-givers' knowledge and NPC enemies' capacities may all be adjusted at will by the level designers.

You just made me think about it... by design, the hero could well be kind of an "atlante", a very favored survivor from a tiny advanced faction, so that, although he is a mean human like other NPCs from other factions, he has the potential to survive first encounters and level toward his legend.

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by Haaznahnuf

Nonetheless, you mark a point, and you should have added an easier access to material (sold) goods for some merchant factions.
If some people want playable initial factions, this choice would surely change the initial town, as well as the initial faction dispositions. I am no sure if Crate is willing to go that way, as you say. For sure, varied origins could add to the game, if a few low-level starting areas could be designed.

While all that stuff would be nice, I'm certainly not arguing for its inclusion, the amount of extra development time would be far too great. I'm also not even arguing that something like player "races" should be in the game at all. I'm simply trying to illustrate that it's not quite as bad an idea as it sounds and could be implemented in a way that quite easily fits the lore and wouldn't suck up all that much development time.

Not so much factions (although it wouldn't be too difficult to give a small bonus to faction rep (whether starting value or percentage modifier to earn rate) based on the players clan), but just a bit of flavour to add a little bit more interesting story text at the beginning with a minor boost to a stat. Nothing that would effect gameplay in a significant way, but just make you feel a little more connected to the character and the world.

As you've already said, thats not really something you look for in an ARPG, and yes, the running around, killing and looting is the main focus, but small touches of story really can make a big difference, at least to a player like me

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by Haaznahnuf

By the way, should a mastery be faction-dependant ? Why not, it would be so RPGish, as you'll have to visit a faction to unlock it.
Now I am not sure how GD could account for a warrior being raised amongst librarians. How a literate warrior could perform better in a ARPG ? That was my point of view.

No, I certainly wouldn't advocate for a mastery to be tribe/clan dependant. While your youth has shaped some minor aspects of your development, you left your home a long time ago, picking up a few skills along the way and now find yourself at Devil's Crossing, ready to face the challenges ahead.

Again, I think the idea has merit, whether or not there's enough reason to include it in the game or not, I'm not sure. It certainly adds a bit of flavour that would be of interest to me, but it certainly does not diminish my view of the game in any significant way if it's not included.

[ketero]

Originally Posted by eisprinzessin

The games I know, which let you choose a race, offer traits for each race. Such traits again would rival with the skills from your two masteries. Or the best build would require you to pick a race you don't like. No, thank you.

+1.

IMO implementing a race and/or trait system has been a waste of resources for most games, since what they end doing is limiting options instead of expanding them. It is only reasonable for roleplay-based games where it is a must and a need.

Also, the only trait system I have really enjoyed was back in Fallout 1 and 2.

[Sharne]

Or the best build would require you to pick a race you don't like. No, thank you.

This frustrated me in previous games where a race has a natural tendency towards magic or fighting... and then I'm like wait... where's my customization?

As for anything in the hack/slash or loot and level genre, I think generic skills and characters always fit the mystery and customization best. An example is the simple design of D2 yet so many niche builds were created from off-skills.