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  #81  
Old 05-03-2012, 12:28 AM
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I'm not quite sure if you thought through that part that had "discourage them from spending money" in it :D

I think my only problem with the AH isn't that others can buy better gear than me, but more how it introduces this potential 'divine intervention' where you for no reason can leap ahead in power and wealth. Even if I'm never planning on using it (I've never even traded in D2, or any arpg for that matter), I fear that the fact that it's there will devalue the sense of acquiring awesome loot and filling up your vault with gold.

I feel one analogy is when I was really into the quake2 singleplayer campaign when that came out. I played it on hard and really took my time playing super defensively and enjoying having to scrounge for every little health pack and ammo, and making it a point to try and survive every first encounter rather than die and quickload.
I came across some cheats and tried them out just for the novelty factor, but even after I turned them back off the game lost all drive for me. It wasn't fun having to cling onto my last 15hp while looking for a health pack when I had the invulnerability cheat ready to go. It wasn't fun looking for a way up to the out-of-reach secret when it would take me all of 4 seconds to type in the noclip cheat.
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  #82  
Old 05-03-2012, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roros View Post
I think my only problem with the AH isn't that others can buy better gear than me, but more how it introduces this potential 'divine intervention' where you for no reason can leap ahead in power and wealth. Even if I'm never planning on using it (I've never even traded in D2, or any arpg for that matter), I fear that the fact that it's there will devalue the sense of acquiring awesome loot and filling up your vault with gold.
Very true... i think with AH, unfortunately, that's what it really is in their business plan. I think we know blizz could've easily implemented the item binding mechanics they did with wow, but chose not to.

Part of that was probably the fact that loot trading became such a huge part of many player's experiences and it was expected in the sequel.

i don't know if it will detract the experience like the quake cheat example, but based on what we saw in D2 (and D2's longevity), i'm sure blizz is betting that it won't for their core market.

The ten item limit, per account, seems like an interesting way to diminish mass market selling, along with the per item max pricing in-game. It'll be interesting to see what the gray market devises for workarounds based on scarcity and demand... (and of course, how blizz works to shut them down).
  #83  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:08 AM
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Well, the point you bring up Roros is more of a game design issue, if they player finds the game more fun with cheats than without there’s key areas of frustration that the developer didn’t design around.

In your quake2 example you mention how having low health was not fun after having a taste of unlimited health and how searching for cool secrets was sort of a pain.

Obviously the solution to those designs is not to give the player invulnerability, but maybe some sort of quick health recharge, respawning health packs in the inventory, or some other means of health regeneration. Like a regenerating shield.

Secrets could be made just as obscure yet easily accessible to the player in ways that don’t detract from the fun of finding them.

I think if a game is more fun with cheats it’s likely due to a lack of good design more than anything. Of course it’s nice being a demi-god but that can get monotonous given enough time.
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  #84  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scryer View Post
Well, the point you bring up Roros is more of a game design issue, if they player finds the game more fun with cheats than without thereís key areas of frustration that the developer didnít design around.
This may be the case, but I think the analogy is still valid. Once players get a taste of some form of work-around that allows for instant gratification via a very quick and drastic improvement in the strength of their character (either via cheats or purchasing items for real money) it will induce player laziness.

I could manage my health very carefully or I could just switch the cheats on.
I could farm and grind for better loot or I could just throw a few dollars around at the auction house.

Both are much easier and quicker means to the desired end. I do agree with Roros on this, it definitely has the potential to de-value the notion of working towards a better character.
  #85  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:39 AM
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I’m not so sure about that, it’s true that purchasing an item with real cash can give a player instant gratification in game, however, that’s very different from having unlimited health or no-clip mode style cheats.

On one hand you must still deal with the games internal gaming systems – many people purchased items in Diablo 2 and still enjoyed the game for years. On the other hand cheats completely circumvent the game systems. So his analogy only really shows me that there can be issues with a games systems, but it doesn’t prove that the RMAH will cheapen the experience for those purchasing from it.
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  #86  
Old 05-03-2012, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Scryer View Post
Iím not so sure about that, itís true that purchasing an item with real cash can give a player instant gratification in game, however, thatís very different from having unlimited health or no-clip mode style cheats.

On one hand you must still deal with the games internal gaming systems Ė many people purchased items in Diablo 2 and still enjoyed the game for years. On the other hand cheats completely circumvent the game systems. So his analogy only really shows me that there can be issues with a games systems, but it doesnít prove that the RMAH will cheapen the experience for those purchasing from it.
Well I certainly agree that the severity between actual cheats and purchasing items with real money do differ.

Really, I think the RMAH falls under the same category as twinking did for me in TQ. I know a lot of people did it and it didn't cheapen the experience for them. But for me, equipping my toon with ideal gear as soon as I could really killed the fun. It made the game way too easy while still dealing with the game systems. I think the RMAH has the potential to offer the exact same thing, except you don't even need to farm for the items in the first place.
  #87  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:00 AM
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In my opinion, loot acquisition is the only real remaining RPG element to Diablo 3, and they've cheapened it. Blizzard was 100% against item sites, but now that they're going to make a profit from item sales, its all hunky dory.

The way I see it, the original Diablo creators are working at Runic. Virtually none of the people that worked on the first two Diablo titles are still at Blizzard. Torchlight 2 will contain a comparable amount of content, allow for modding, will not require a constant internet connection, will allow me to build my character in that traditional RPG fashion, and will be $40 cheaper. To me, Blizzard now also seems to have this sense of entitlement regarding Diablo 3. Every time they've rebutted fans discontent with their design decisions, I've felt as though they patted us on the head, and said "Its OK, we created WOW."

This is not an attempt to dissuade anyone from buying Diablo 3, nor am I attempting to start an argument. I am also not one of those people that feels you must choose one game or the other. I'm playing POE right now, and am equally excited for Torchlight 2 and Grim Dawn (perhaps Grim Dawn the most). If you enjoy Diablo 3, I hope you purchase it on day one and enjoy it immensely. I just cannot force myself into getting behind Diablo 3, or its creators.
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  #88  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:11 AM
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I was kinda miffed about the real money auctions too. That and the lack of lan and always online component. I mean I can see the arguments, but I don't like the idea of my game going dark because my internet goes down and the legit auctions seem to cheapen the game a bit. That being said, I won't say I'll never buy Diablo III, but with this and after being somewhat underwhelmed by the beta, I'm in to rush to buy it at this point. At this point it looks like Grim Dawn and Torchlight II is where it's at.
  #89  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:12 AM
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This difference is that Blizzard is actually entitled to their decisions.
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  #90  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scryer View Post
This difference is that Blizzard is actually entitled to their decisions.
I'm afraid you'll need to justify that...
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