Diablo 3 - Released!

[Scryer]

The math behind Diablo 2 was pretty easy to figure out, especially if you already had your set of gear ready to use.

How many hammerdins does one need to make before they realize they're all OP? I'm sure you could spend plenty of time trying to figure out less optimal builds, but the same is true of Diablo 3, except without the pain of slogging through normal, nightmare and hell all over again.

The difference is that the math in Diablo 3 is a lot harder to figure out.

[Asgard]

Originally Posted by Scryer

The math behind Diablo 2 was pretty easy to figure out, especially if you already had your set of gear ready to use.

How many hammerdins does one need to make before they realize they're all OP? I'm sure you could spend plenty of time trying to figure out less optimal builds, but the same is true of Diablo 3, except without the pain of slogging through normal, nightmare and hell all over again.

The difference is that the math in Diablo 3 is a lot harder to figure out.

Does Diablo 2 even have Maths? Does Diablo 3 have Maths? O.o
I thought it was just about planning builds?

[Renevent]

Originally Posted by Scryer

The math behind Diablo 2 was pretty easy to figure out, especially if you already had your set of gear ready to use.

How many hammerdins does one need to make before they realize they're all OP? I'm sure you could spend plenty of time trying to figure out less optimal builds, but the same is true of Diablo 3, except without the pain of slogging through normal, nightmare and hell all over again.

The difference is that the math in Diablo 3 is a lot harder to figure out.

I think that's baloney...you are talking about it as if it was so easy and all this stuff was know practically immediately...these builds were discovered and created over YEARS of people dissecting every aspect of the game down to the number of attacks you can get out of a certain number of animation frames.

Diablo 2's skill system had tons of people on multiple sites over many years creating and perfecting builds, and I think it's pretty safe to say this was due to how deep it was and the ability to take a mathematical approach to it's skill system (min/max).

How can you even claim Diablo 3 is harder to figure out? You have access to switch and swap all your skills at any time and there's no stat distribution. Hell, there isn't even variable levels for skills anymore. The ONLY way to increase your powers numerically in Diablo 3 is by finding new items.

[Scryer]

Well, that’s the mathematical analytic side of Diablo 2 when you say something like “Hell, there isn't even variable levels for skills anymore. The ONLY way to increase your powers numerically in Diablo 3 is by finding new items.”

I imagine Diablo 3 will be just as difficult if not more so to figure out the most optimal builds.

I mean all you had to do in Diablo 2 was go to a fan site, look for the most optimal builds for your class and follow the build , every + stat and +skill all laid out for you. Then you’d either trade for the gear you needed or buy it from some 3rd party site.

Diablo 3 will be the exact same way. Except optimal builds will be based on what specific skills / skill rune / passive combinations are useful against specific combinations of mods on rares and elites.

There will certainly be optimal builds for most rare and elite mod combos but how long do you really think it’s going to take to figure them out? If it took people years to figure out the most optimal builds for Diablo 2, I suspect this will also happen in Diablo 3.

All and all, I see D3 as at least as sophisticated if not more so, than Diablo 2.

[Renevent]

Originally Posted by Scryer

Well, that’s the mathematical analytic side of Diablo 2 when you say something like “Hell, there isn't even variable levels for skills anymore. The ONLY way to increase your powers numerically in Diablo 3 is by finding new items.”

I imagine Diablo 3 will be just as difficult if not more so to figure out the most optimal builds.

I mean all you had to do in Diablo 2 was go to a fan site, look for the most optimal builds for your class and follow the build , every + stat and +skill all laid out for you. Then you’d either trade for the gear you needed or buy it from some 3rd party site.

Diablo 3 will be the exact same way. Except optimal builds will be based on what specific skills / skill rune / passive combinations are useful against specific combinations of mods on rares and elites.

There will certainly be optimal builds for most rare and elite mod combos but how long do you really think it’s going to take to figure them out? If it took people years to figure out the most optimal builds for Diablo 2, I suspect this will also happen in Diablo 3.

All and all, I see D3 as at least as sophisticated if not more so, than Diablo 2.

The fact you were able to go to a fan site and copy the work someone else figured out doesn't mean that build didn't require any thought. And like I said before, all those builds were developed over years of the game being released.

At any rate, do you seriously believe the same build/item guides won't exist for Diablo 3? They absolutely 100% will, and they absolutely 100% will be used by tons of people. And while they will continue to develop over years just like D2, you are not addressing the issues of the things D3 is lacking.

Anyways the things you brought up exist for Diablo 2 as well, it's just that Diablo 2 had more variables in those formulas. That's the point. D3's system is streamlined and I think even casualized. That may still be fun, it's still deep enough for folks to figure out tons of builds, but it's definitely not as deep as D2.

Listen, I'm not saying Diablo 3's skill system is shit or anything. I personally think it's a bit underwhelming especially vs what they originally announced for it. The reality is it has been streamlined and made more accessible. It's more flexible in terms of hard constraints. That may be more fun for a lot of people, and that's fine, but it's no way more complex or requires more 'math'.

It's kinda interesting how they switched so much character progression over to items, and how the RMAH is brought into the fold. Coincidence? Maybe...I personally think not lol.

[Mindray]

Originally Posted by Albedoshin

Your character doesn't feel unique anymore because all barbs are the same. If I were to like your build, within 10 sec. I am exactly the same as you save the equipment.

True, but so will characters in Grim Dawn, Torchlight 2, you name it, but this is moot point really.

Please, show me the game where you can make an unique character build, and be sure nobody will copy it, or just simply happen to make the same one. The net is full of 'my awesome build.txt' topics, and that means some people will eventually find this 'perfect' build and use it, and so will half of the players that don't like to do the work on their own.

You CAN be unique (actually you always are, because it's you who plays the game) when you decide to, for example, run with naked character or use weapons that are not so effective for it, but if this build will be of any use...is another matter.

I, for one, never looked up for builds in any game and don't plan to make shortcuts. Like most people, I want to make my character unique in terms of skills, looks, but I know it's not possible; there will be always someone with same build just around the corner.

Will this detail make me not play the games like Grim Dawn or Diablo 3? Of course not, because for me the uniqueness lies in how I play and how I utilize skills. It's the playstyle that dictates if your unique or not. Skills and gear are just for adding another color to the palette.

[Renevent]

Just to go off track for a second...where are people buying their copies of the game? I was thinking about grabbing it from Blizzard Store but wasn't sure how release day would go. Think there would be D/L problems? Is there a pre-load for the Blizzard Store like Steam? I haven't purchased a Blizzard game since vanilla WoW so obviously been a while

[Scryer]

Character progression is a relative term. The main idea being that once a player reaches max level there’s still ‘something to do.’ Gear has always been at the forefront of character progression in Diablo if you think otherwise you’re kidding yourself. Skills and skill runes are unlocked every single level which is no different than climbing a tree that unlocks skills at specific levels.

Also, I think the nuances of + stats and + skills are just a tad bit overblown. They allowed for minute variances in builds at best, nothing a few +skill gear couldn’t fix.

Regardless, I just don’t see any point of contention with the new skill system, every skill in Diablo 3 is worthwhile to the player under the right circumstances and accompanied with the right skills, passives, and gear. But this is something that won’t be known until players reach nightmare and realize that their builds need to be more refined. I won’t expect this from veteran Diablo players though.

Originally Posted by Renevent

Just to go off track for a second...where are people buying their copies of the game? I was thinking about grabbing it from Blizzard Store but wasn't sure how release day would go. Think there would be D/L problems? Is there a pre-load for the Blizzard Store like Steam? I haven't purchased a Blizzard game since vanilla WoW so obviously been a while

You can pre-load the game now without even purchasing it, also I'm getting the CE, thus will be picking it up from Gamestop.

It's really up to you, if you want a physical copy of the disc you can buy it from Best Buy / gamestop ect. Either way you'll end up with the game attached to your Blizzard account and you'll have the ability to download the game whenever / where ever you like.

[Renevent]

Originally Posted by Scryer

Character progression is a relative term. The main idea being that once a player reaches max level there’s still ‘something to do.’ Gear has always been at the forefront of character progression in Diablo if you think otherwise you’re kidding yourself. Skills and skill runes are unlocked every single level which is no different than climbing a tree that unlocks skills at specific levels.

Also, I think the nuances of + stats and + skills are just a tad bit overblown. They allowed for minute variances in builds at best, nothing a few +skill gear couldn’t fix.

Regardless, I just don’t see any point of contention with the new skill system, every skill in Diablo 3 is worthwhile to the player under the right circumstances and accompanied with the right skills, passives, and gear. But this is something that won’t be known until players reach nightmare and realize that their builds need to be more refined. I won’t expect this from veteran Diablo players though.

You are not really making a compelling argument. Downplaying the streamlined aspects in D3 isn't showing it's more complicated, it only says you don't care about those nuances in D2.

The reality is in D3 you have skill/rune choice and itemization...that's it.

In D2 you have skill choice, skill investments (points), stat distribution, AND itemization.

The point is yes itemization is a big part of Diablo and always has...never tried to dispute that. The fact is they've removed a lot of the other choices players had and the focus has clearly shifted to items being responsible almost exclusively for progressing skill power. Hell, most of the skills in the game are based on weapon damage lol.

Anyways I don't want to go on an on about this subject...I do want to play the game and damn been waiting years for this day to come lol. I'm underwhelmed with the skill system but the game has a lot of positives too. I'm sure it'll be fun

Originally Posted by Scryer

You can pre-load the game now without even purchasing it, also I'm getting the CE, thus will be picking it up from Gamestop.

It's really up to you, if you want a physical copy of the disc you can buy it from Best Buy / gamestop ect. Either way you'll end up with the game attached to your Blizzard account and you'll have the ability to download the game whenever / where ever you like.

Ah didn't know that, thanks! BTW, did you buy and play any other of Blizzard's heavily anticipated games on release? Were there issues trying to play the first day?

[Chameleon]

I think we all have to see D3 not as a Diablo franchise game...but as just another ARPG. Well that's how I am viewing it.

Apart from its name for me there isnt much Diabloness in it...but as a game in an of itself it looks good.