On "Farming"

[Droppz]

I do not really have a problem with farming bosses over and over again but i can sympathize with those who does.

What if each difficulty had different end bosses? A new model same basic speciall abilities but a whole lot of extras or just completely new skills, it would fit with the increasing difficulty and also be something new and fresh for each tier.

It would probably mess up the story, but i think it would be a great idea actually, i always looked forward to the Hydra in TQ, when you see new things after you spent hours with the same content and areas you really enjoy to find something new.

In addition to that we get random generated areas in the world, and the random high level dungeons in the world sound like a great idea. I only compare it to TQ. GD are already so different, i know i will be pleased either way they go.

[Alweth]

Originally Posted by eisprinzessin

Following your discussion, you might want to take these quotes into account

I agree. You shouldn't try to penalize any style of gameplay. At the same time, under the existing design paradigm, boss farming is unfairly (that is, more than other modes of play) rewarded, and many players don't like that. (The kind that do like that are the kind that enjoy boss farming and therefore would do it anyway.) This is not a neutral choice! You are effectively penalizing all other forms of play!

I think there's a real difference between adding a penalty to some behavior and removing the special incentive. Unfortunately, our tendency is to offer solutions in the "penalty" category (which usually just distort gameplay behavior more, causing more problems).

However, I am merely suggesting that you reward other sections of play with equivalent loot (thus removing the special incentive). The player will still have the following incentives to beat bosses: so they can move on in the plot, because it's a challenging and/or interesting fight, because they hate his guts, so they can open up new areas.

The claim that bosses have to give better loot because they're more threatening is moot as soon as players start killing that boss over and over again. "More threatening" is basically meaningless when there's little to no risk in fighting the boss. "Time it takes to kill them" is actually a much more relevant variable.

Originally Posted by mamba

Well, it seems everyone who ever played an ARPG has figured it out

This is simply not true, and even if it were true, "Everyone eventually figures it out" does not equal "intuitive".

not sure where I did not describe exactly that, I did not say the average mob drops 1 item in 5 kills while the boss drops 20, I said the player gets 1-2 good drops from the boss.

You said 1 in 100 for mobs and 1 to 2 each for bosses. That's a difference of FREQUENCY which ignores the fact that there's actually a higher cap on QUALITY. That is one of the main reasons (if not the only reason) that boss running is more efficient.

Of course the better item probability is higher, I never meant it any other way.

You just didn't say it.

Ok, to make it more obvious for you boss farming is not undesireable. Can't make it any more obvious than that

I know what you are saying, you seem to have difficulty grasping the concept that I disagree with your whole idea of boss runs being undesirable. So what you consider a fix to them to me is breaking a useful and wanted feature.

The whole premise of this thread is that boss farming as the supreme way to get loot is undesirable. I am not here to argue that point. I am talking about how to solve the problem. If you don't agree it's a problem, why'd you reply to my post?

I disagree again, boss runs are intuitive. They are also optional. So if you do not like them, do not do them.

Different things are fun to different people, if you rather keep playing on, do so, if you rather want to find some good gear first you know where to get it

Inversely, if you like them go ahead and do them. I'm not trying to stop you. But why should your play-style be preferred over ours? I can think of a number of reasons (and have listed some) that ours should be preferred over yours.

Yes, that is why bosses have a better chance to drop items, but instead of dropping 50 items like you suggest, they drop maybe 10 with a higher probability of good items, which you somehow think is wrong.

I never said 50 items. You just pulled that number out of thin air. Obviously, the formula will need tweaking to get the desired results--that's normal in development.

No it is not desireable, you completely ignore the 'more reward for more danger' concept. Killing a boss should give better loot than killing 100 crows even if they combined have the same HP / deal the same damage as the boss (or whatever you base your formula on).

Here you're just restating your bias without justification (again), ignoring my counter argument (that the existing system already allows some number of "crows" to give more good loot than a single boss), couched in pejorative language. "Crows" are just a hypothetical mob and therefore could just as easily be called "abyssal death knights". Does one boss have to drop better loot than 100 abyssal death knights?

I was talking about your tilt, which is just your way of saying bosses should drop more compared to average mobs, something which you initially claimed is 'intuitively wrong'.

No... you don't understand the tilt at all. The tilt exists to allow loot frequency to be tied to overall threat while allowing an automatic base-line that makes sense (hp) to save development time and make assigning value easier. (It's easier to answer the question "Is this mob easy or hard relative to its hp?" than it is to answer the question "What number would you give this mob to rate its threateningness compared to all other mobs?")

Also, tilt doesn't adjust loot quality, just frequency, and higher loot quality for bosses is what's incentivizing boss farming.

[Wingflier]

This was a very well-written idea, thank you :P

[Zendrak]

Well, we did get to (and blow waaaaay past ) the $425k kickstart goal. It was for 3 randomly placed high level dungeons so why can't those all be higher in level than the end boss, a harder challenge with a decent chance of Good drops through out... Could even stagger them some so that one is a little challenging with nice drops, one is fairly challenging with Good drops, and one is Really challenging with great drops. Maybe have them always scale with toon level so no matter when you find / enter them they are always (monster level and loot drops) in tune with the player level. Could set them up on a 1 hour timer to encourage people to farm all 3 and not just stay in one. If the layout is random it will be even better.

One thing I would like Crate to keep in mind (here and everywhere else in the game) is to please don't make the zone in area of a dungeon a death trap, nothing is worse than zoning into a new area, dieing in the first room and not being able to get your corpse / tombstone back.

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Incidentally, I am a player that does TONS of "boss runs" and one of my favorite things to do is to twink alts after I have beaten the game with my main.

[mamba]

Originally Posted by Alweth

This is simply not true, and even if it were true, "Everyone eventually figures it out" does not equal "intuitive".

Well, it still is more intuitive than bosses being no better than mobs given the same time of playing to me. What is intuitive about that ? Nothing, even you need the tilt to compensate for 'threateningness' (which clearly is higher for bosses than for crows).

You said 1 in 100 for mobs and 1 to 2 each for bosses. That's a difference of FREQUENCY which ignores the fact that there's actually a higher cap on QUALITY. That is one of the main reasons (if not the only reason) that boss running is more efficient.

Of course it is a difference in frequency, but it is caused by the probability of higher quality gear. I did not say every 10th mob drops an item and every 10th item is good on average while a boss drops 16 items of which 1 or 2 are good. That would be frequency because of the number of items.

You just didn't say it.

Most people can make deductions, esp. if they are obvious and intuitive. As you seem to struggle with that, I start to see why you find boss runs non-intutitive

The whole premise of this thread is that boss farming as the supreme way to get loot is undesirable. I am not here to argue that point. I am talking about how to solve the problem. If you don't agree it's a problem, why'd you reply to my post?

I disagree with that premise. Did not know that only people who agree with your view are allowed to share their thoughts on the topic (would make for a boring thread too...)

When you are posting in a public forum you should be expecting people to post, whether they agree with you or not. I think arguing that point is very valid, because if you do not argue the premise, how can you come to a common understanding whether the change you want because of that premise is actually beneficial to the game / wanted by the community.

Inversely, if you like them go ahead and do them. I'm not trying to stop you. But why should your play-style be preferred over ours? I can think of a number of reasons (and have listed some) that ours should be preferred over yours.

Well, I certainly listed some reasons too, you just chose to ignore them / disagree with them

I never said 50 items. You just pulled that number out of thin air. Obviously, the formula will need tweaking to get the desired results--that's normal in development.

Yes, you did not say 50, you said bosses should simply drop accordingly more items with the same probability of good items, thereby still dropping more good items than a simple mob.

In order for the boss to then drop a reasonable amount of good items, it would have to be very many items that do get dropped....

The tweaking you are talking about is what is the logic now, i.e. in order to not need to drop 50 items, you increase the probability of good items...

Here you're just restating your bias without justification (again), ignoring my counter argument (that the existing system already allows some number of "crows" to give more good loot than a single boss), couched in pejorative language. "Crows" are just a hypothetical mob and therefore could just as easily be called "abyssal death knights". Does one boss have to drop better loot than 100 abyssal death knights?

Yes, crows are hypothtical, I could have said sheep, snails, ... the point is, they are considerably weaker than a boss, and the name brought that across. That has nothing to do with being pejorative.

If you want to, yes abyssal death knight, doesn't change anything. The abyssal death knights still has to drop significantly less loot than the Lord of Destruction who rules his world

I grant you that the abyssal death knight should drop more loot than the crow, and the first boss Flowerchild the Lame should probably drop about the same loot as the higher level death knights. But that is already the case today, no need to change anything...

No... you don't understand the tilt at all. The tilt exists to allow loot frequency to be tied to overall threat

so how is that different from having a boss drop more good loot ? That is exactly what your tilt will do, no matter what baseline you use.

while allowing an automatic base-line that makes sense (hp) to save development time and make assigning value easier. (It's easier to answer the question "Is this mob easy or hard relative to its hp?" than it is to answer the question "What number would you give this mob to rate its threateningness compared to all other mobs?")

Yes, that is why the crow drops less than the death knight, who in turn drops less than most bosses... just like it is today

Also, tilt doesn't adjust loot quality, just frequency, and higher loot quality for bosses is what's incentivizing boss farming.

So we are back to dropping 50 items for the boss. The higher quality does not incentivize it, because the number of items is severly lower than it would have to be in order to keep the probability the same across every enemy and still have the boss drop decent loot.

[Calvin]

Forgive me if I'm somewhat out of my element here... I just joined the forums.

Using references from TQ... what if boss monsters only dropped/guarded say... Majestic Chests (so that there would still be some loot reward).

The swirly orb/typhons essence-level loot boxes would be found, say at the end of one of those high level dungeons we got with the kickstarter or the Aether/Cthulu place. Somewhere that is detached from the beaten path, and that has an element of randomization to it. The Hero monsters that guard the treasures would, of course be very strong and what not.

The bosses could have exclusive drops that differ from good gear though. Say that for example in TQ, the Telkines were the only mobs that could drop essences/relics, one-time-use scrolls, or formulae. This gives incentive to farm the boss, but without the necessary feeling of being chained to the task in order to get epic/legendary gear.

To have the high difficulty dungeon sets--deviating from the "main path" and boss monsters--holding the best drops for gear, while the bosses are good for the story, and temporary buff / equipment enhancement items would leave a reason to farm in more places than one, without forcing boss runs.

Beating a boss could also provide a temporary boost to your characters abilities, which would give incentive to kill the boss before you farm a dungeon. Idk... probably not very intuitive ideas... just my 2 cents.

Edit: By the way, in terms of farming and replay value... has anyone suggested level-capped areas? I'm sure there are those opposed to the idea, but if there were certain optional places to go that held challenges or benefits that would reduce your character's level to say, 10 15 20 respectively etc., that would allow for a reason to desire low level gear for certain instances. This would give a reason to farm bosses in a weaker difficulty even when you are high level, so that you can get low-level gear for more reasons than to just gear another character.

Perhaps survival mode could fill this gap. Maybe we could have level capped tiers of survival mode, and you can gear up the appropriate level to play them with.

Again, idk. Just offering some suggestions.

[Santa]

Why continue to make things complicated?

Farming is part of gaming! You have things to look for and sets to complete!

In-fact.... if it wasn't for item sets ... you know, to find the better equipment, then games would fall apart overnight (games of this type I mean).

Boredom of repetition IS a problem but it WILL NOT stop players from doing it to get to a required target! The trick is to design the game play so it remains a "mystery" or "adventure".. and most importantly - FUNNY !!

Sure, have it so BIG Boss number 1 drops a certain set and big boss2 drops a different set... but why make it so your level affects the chance of a drop??

Why not Keep It Simple Stupid?

Bosses drop set items at X% rate.....

Other enemies drop set items at Y% or Z% depending on their difficulty...

And how about this as an idea..... AREA SPECIFIC drops? As in specific sets ONLY drop in specific AREAS of the map? And add to that the ability to FIND items IN things that you BUST open?

In other posts there has been talk about destructible environments etc... well surely as the war got worse people would have HIDDEN special rare items/artifacts all over the place. Don't we all do this in real life now?

There are plenty of ways to make it UN-boring.. always on the edge of finding something ... especially if there IS a chance of finding things at anytime by surprise!

PS. Take a look at my picture. Notice where it is from? Yes TQIT! Now have a look at what I am wearing.... YES a Santa set!! It came from the Secret Cave at End Game! You can't imagine my joy and laughter when I saw a Santa Suit!! It took me two weeks to get the whole set!
This is the kind of thing I loved about TQIT .. surprises!

I even tried to contact Iron Lore to ask if they could make a new Santa weapon.. A bag that dropped Items when you hit monsters with it! Would that be as funny as hell?? Unfortunately the reply was that the game is no longer supported. Oh well, maybe I will get my Bag of Tricks in GD!

[Calvin]

Originally Posted by Santa

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PS. Take a look at my picture. Notice where it is from? Yes TQIT! Now have a look at what I am wearing.... YES a Santa set!! It came from the Secret Cave at End Game! You can't imagine my joy and laughter when I saw a Santa Suit!! It took me two weeks to get the whole set!
This is the kind of thing I loved about TQIT .. surprises!

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This is exactly the one thing I absolutely hate about video games. Please Grim Dawn, for the love of life itself, do not put silly things like Santa outfits and other nonsensical / easter egg items all over the place. It breaks immersion of course, but more importantly it breaks respect. Let the modders ruin the game themselves.

[Santa]

You have no sense of humor!

Games are meant to be fun... not serious and real!

If you don't like some set a game offers... DON'T USE IT!

[Calvin]

I'm sorry but, I like my comedy in the comedy genre. If I want to play a game called "Grim Dawn" about some macabre experience with ghouls and zombies, I don't want to wear a Santaclaus outfit. Keep that in the Santaclause video games.