Attribute names

[eralduspr]

Hi, I've been keeping an eye on this game for quite some time now and I'm really enjoying everything so far, that this game is already a buy form me, whoever, there is a little something that it is bugging me, it isn't a big deal really and maybe it will sound a bit dumb for you guys.

It is about the name of the 3 stats name. (Cunning, Physique and Spirit)

Could you change their name back to the "classic" Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence? It is just that those new 3 names feel a bit "strange" to me...

I'll understand if it can't be changed and I'll deal with it, but if it is possible, please, hear me out

Thanks, I can't wait to get my hands on this game

[yerkyerk]

There's no such thing as dumb suggestions, it's good to let your concerns be heard, that way, the devs can form a good vision of what is living with their fans. Personally, I can't be bothered with the names of the attributes too much, though I still hope they're changing "energy" back to "mana". "Energy", to me, just seems like a term that is used just because it's worded differently, but it does exactly the same as the more intuitive term "mana". I also had this issue in TQ. Innovation for the sake of innovation.. oh well. I think Cunning is a good term, Physique seems slightly less intuitive, even though it's more descriptive and Spirit... well, I dunno. I think either Wisdom or Intelligence might suit better.

Anyway, here's the original post where medierra mentioned why they changed the attribute names;

Originally Posted by medierra

Currently we have Cunning, Physique, and Spirit (I thought prowess might be better than cunning but we can't have two attributes beginning with P can we?!). I deviated from Str, Dex, Int since those names didn't quite match up that well with the new functions of each attribute.

Cunning - OA and bonus to all damages
Physique - DA, Health, and Req for heavy armor
Spirit - Energy, Energy Regen and Req to use certain "top grade" magic items / affixes.

Note that energy and energy regen are more important than they were in TQ since you can't just spam energy pots anymore.

Oh, also, welcome to the forums!

[medierra]

I understand your feeling. I admit I am not really in love with the new names and they are a compromise, as nearly everything in game design is.

The new names may be a bit awkward and aren't what you'd expect but the traditional names didn't fit with the new attribute bonuses. If I went with traditional names, I think it would be counter-intuitive and potentially mislead people. Since people won't instantly recognize the new names, I think it is more likely they'll read the descriptions to find out what they do.

Looking back on TQ and other games, I feel like we stick to Str, Dex, Int, etc, out of tradition and there is a tendency to design the bonuses around the names instead of based on what is best for gameplay.

I felt like it was time to reverse that trend and start by first thinking about bonus assignments that worked better for gameplay and then worry about matching names to them.

In TQ, dexterity gives you both offensive and defensive ability. It makes sense thinking about the meaning of dexterity and that a more dexterous person would be better able to both evade enemy attacks and maneuver past enemy defenses to land attacks. This doesn't provide a very interesting choice though and I felt like it would be better if players had a clearer choice about whether to pursue offense or defense.

Fortunately, strength did still have some value in TQ but only in as much as you needed it to meet equipment requirements. Though it provided a physical damage bonus, dexterity provided a piece damage bonus and increased chance to critical hit.

Intelligence wasn't hugely useful for non-casters but for casters it was probably all too useful. Intelligence provided a bonus to elemental damage, boosted regen and was the primary equipment requirement.. WTF?! Not sure which idiot decided that was a good idea... oh wait... that might have been me...

Meanwhile, the other attributes didn't hold much value for casters. Did anyone ever put much into energy? I think most of the mastery bonuses gave you as much energy as you needed. Health, on the other hand, could be useful but it was hard to put anything in health while trying to keep up with equipment requirements.

My main goal with the new attributes was to split up offense and defense, while giving casters some incentive to spread their points out more. I still expect that certain class combinations will focus on certain attributes but I don't that is a bad thing as long as there is some give and take.

Accordingly, dexterity (now cunning) increases offensive ability (chance to hit / critical hit) as well as providing a bonus to all damages, including elemental. This makes it useful even for casters but certainly it is something non-casters will need. However, now it doesn't provide any defensive bonus, so while investing points into it, there is more of a choice between DPS and survivability. In terms of the name though, I questioned, why does dexterity raise elemental damage? Why doesn't it allow you to evade attacks better and raise defensive ability? I thesauruses the shit out of it to come up with alternatives and eventually decided that cunning seemed the most appropriate.

Strength, now physique, provides defensive ability, increases health, and is the primary item requirement for armor, weapons and shields. This gives it a critical, multi-faceted role in boosting survivability. As a requirement for weapons, it plays an indirect role in damage but generally it is not difficult to meet the requirement for weapons, whereas heavier armor tends to have more significant requirements. In this case, it seemed like strength would be misleading for an attribute that allows you to evade attacks and doesn't increase physical damage. I felt like physique, though a bit of an awkward term, was the best fit for an attribute I imaged providing general physical fitness - the ability to move quickly to avoid attacks and greater health while also being able to utilize heavier equipment.

Intelligence, now spirit, provides energy and energy regeneration while also playing a role as a requirement for certain magical items like rings and amulets. I still don't think most melee characters will invest much in spirit but there are times when I'm playing a melee character that I think "man, I wish I could wear higher level rings sooner" or "damn, it would be nice if I had a little faster regen".

"Energy", to me, just seems like a term that is used just because it's worded differently, but it does exactly the same as the more intuitive term "mana". I also had this issue in TQ. Innovation for the sake of innovation..

How is mana intuitive? When I first encountered that word in role playing games as a kid, I thought "wtf is mana?" I figured out that it was used to cast spells but it wasn't until I became a designer that I actually looked up the meaning of the word. Mana is apparently a Polynesian word and, while I'm not sure I completely trust the English dictionary definition of it, it is something like "life-force". Why not just say "energy". Energy is a very common word and people instantly recognize that energy is used to "do stuff".

Additionally, while mana is RPG convention for spell-casting energy, we use energy for non-magical skills as well. Energy seems like a better general-use term to cover both magical and non-magical abilities.

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Heh, that's what I call detailed explanation! =)))

I like the names and their new functions (yeah, well, what I do not like about GD though...)!


EDIT: Also, I really love how you want to change the tradition and make something new, medierra! Thumbs up, man! I really appreciate this attitude! =)

[Mind Dragon]

I think the system makes sense. As always, the health and defense needs of ranged players can be hard to manage -- as they normally try to avoid being hit.

I dislike the wait for the enemy that has high health, runs faster than you, and is resistant to stun/freeze/... that proves things can be tough.

The melee character, he wants things to come to him so he hit them;... he has his high health and defense, what's not to like. Ok a few points here or there might help out.

With a cunning spirited character, a few points in health isnt going to allow something big hit you a bunch of times while you whittle down its health as it resists your defenses.

As for the terms, I would welcome a bit of a change especially if it made sense and was explained.

For gameplay, I prefer the action of tactical combat decisions rather than attribute numbers balancing (or rather inbalance punishment). It would be best if there was a fairly wide range that was playable and the player has to adjust tactics/skills to accomode.

Edit: In theory, I didnt mind dexterity providing defense as well as offense and it made sense that you werent a big character as a mage or hunter. In practice, it seemed all the important enemies could hit you even if you had high dexterity.

[Mihalis]

Although the word "Physic" feels a little weird, i think the offensive, defensive, energy etc. abilities make more sense the way medierra describes them and the use of their names is pretty much straight forward.

[yerkyerk]

Originally Posted by medierra

How is mana intuitive? When I first encountered that word in role playing games as a kid, I thought "wtf is mana?" I figured out that it was used to cast spells[...]
Additionally, while mana is RPG convention for spell-casting energy, we use energy for non-magical skills as well. Energy seems like a better general-use term to cover both magical and non-magical abilities.

Exactly because of that. Mana has become a common catch-all term for the amount of magic points you have to cast spells. It is for a reason that over at TQ.net they still often talk about mana, even though the term TQ uses is energy. That's saying something. Everyone knows what mana stands for.

Energy, on the other hand, is used to describe a ton of stuff in games and is rather ambiguous. It often means stamina, physical energy (not magical), a type of element, etc...
In real-life, if you run out of energy, you get tired. But mentally you can still be strong. And vice-versa. The energy a person has is just a reflection of their physical resources. As such, energy fails to describe mental resources, let alone the supernatural ones.

Besides, even most active skills from physical oriented classes in TQ were supernatural powers that had little to do with physical energy - calling on Ancient warriors, transforming into a Giant, Heightened Awareness, Stunning, etc...

Anyway, cutting a long story short;
Everyone uses mana and everyone knows what it stands for.
Energy is, at best, ambiguous.

[donkey]

Originally Posted by medierra

Intelligence wasn't hugely useful for non-casters but for casters it was probably all too useful. Intelligence provided a bonus to elemental damage, boosted regen and was the primary equipment requirement.. WTF?! Not sure which idiot decided that was a good idea... oh wait... that might have been me...

I appreciate every manifestation of self-criticism.

New attribute names may be awkward, but with your detailed explanation, everything is clear now.

Love the mechanic that lies behind new attributes, at last we will have sensible caster builds (not "pump all into INT attribute"). Also it gives us a chance to create interesting class-hybrids

[varsovie]

Originally Posted by medierra

Intelligence wasn't hugely useful for non-casters but for casters it was probably all too useful. Intelligence provided a bonus to elemental damage, boosted regen and was the primary equipment requirement.. WTF?! Not sure which idiot decided that was a good idea... oh wait... that might have been me...

Intelligence, now spirit, provides energy and energy regeneration while also playing a role as a requirement for certain magical items like rings and amulets. I still don't think most melee characters will invest much in spirit but there are times when I'm playing a melee character that I think "man, I wish I could wear higher level rings sooner" or "damn, it would be nice if I had a little faster regen".

For me you exchange oranges for apples.
I feel that a caster will put points into spi, until he fulfill the requirements for his stuff, then pump out dex.
If you want to make all stats equals (but not plain), it might be good to give dex requirement to some items, remove the requirements or tweak them.
Remove his my first pick, because it's boring when you find an uber good item, but know you need to wait 20 minutes to gain a level, pump stats and then use it.
But I know that as a game developer, it's a good balance lever to have.

So why not instead when an object has a requirement of 20 something (som), instead of being able to wear it only if you have 20 som, make it usable anytime, but at effectiveness proportional to the requirement?
Like if you have only 10 som, then the object only work at 50% ?(halved damage/protection/bonus). But of course much complex formula may be choose (%=1+ln(stat/requierement)/2.

You could also replase the skill requirement by a class requirement, the way Din's Curse do. Like the *knight* class can wear heavy armor, but not robes... Because anyway, in TQ if you choose War and Defence, you're not going to wear robes.

Oh and for people who can't stand CPS instead of DSI, it will be possible to tweak the language files and replace those three lines.

ps. It's nice to see game developers actually listening their fans.
And also, TQ gold at 75% discount on impulse : http://impulsedriven.com/products/ESD-IMP-W118
I bought some to gift to friends. (But I dunno who got my cash, iron lore lawers, THQ?)

[Executioneer]

when i saw a screenshot and saw the names, they seemed out of place, but after a lengthy explanation like this one... man it seems the mist is gone. i always saw strength as an inferior attribute, in the sense that while gear reqs were not a problem, it only affected dmg. even though most of my players were melee i always felt that they had a disadvantage since my idea was to let strength increase OA and some health. NOW i'm satisfied! thanks med for that!

what i did not like was the dex relation to DA, ... sorry, cunning i mean. not et used to it! as a caster, i tried many combinations in TQIT, all were interesting, although i never made a successful nature one, i'm doomed with that class! but back on subject, most times that were critical, like having a mage against an uber army of gigantes rushing with their shields ahead of them without enough time to react of flee (no teleport skil:'(), i found myself alive simply by keeping enough points in dex to keep up with the defensive ability required. in that way, melee toons which had a heavy dmg output, and those damned melinoe with onslaught, had to slap me multiple times to be able to kill me, giving me enough time for a spellbreaker, distort reality, or chain lighting, or sometimes countering with arcane lore from ternion. earth had the stone form which made a formidable strategy with eruption, but once monsters are not dead, DA was crucial.

i know i found myself in these sticky situations simply because i installed the uber mod but i preferred a challenge.

the good thing is that if a caster has enough points, he can invest some of them in physique so that he has some DA, Health and hopefully enough of the others to keep blasting his way to... wherever he is meant to go.