The "Biggest, Baddest guy"

[ASYLUM101]

I hope he is a mad chemist who is capable of drinking copious amounts of drugs to empower himself and then throw you around like a ragdoll...

[alexei]

Make it an impossible encounter to defeat. You can't even top him even with full house level 200 multiplayer raid to kill him. Har har har!

[hooby]

Originally Posted by medierra

So, you have two supernatural races that are not necessarily evil but which have no regard for human life and will readily kill or abuse humans to further their own agendas. The Aetherials and Chthonians are distinctly "other" than human and they have their own back-stories, their own purpose, and generally see no value in human life. They may see themselves as "the good guys" but both are clearly a hostile force threatening the future of humanity.

Sorry, but I don't like it.

Read my modified version to see why:

Originally Posted by modified

So, you have two lesser races that are not necessarily evil but which have no regard for western culture and will readily cheat or abuse wellfare to further their own agendas. The immigrants are distinctly "other" than locals and they have their own language, their own culture, and generally see no value in local customs. They may see themselves as "the good guys" but both are clearly a hostile force threatening the future of racial purity.

Why has "different" always to be equal to "bad"? Why can't different races work together? Why has the big enemy always to be another race - because of their other culture and their different views on life?

[Azrael]

Wow... really?
The only reason you could reinterpret that entire thing the way you have is because you probably have some sort of racial issues.

It's a fantasy game, which opens up the way for other races nicely. Having other races not only makes it possible to have things other than humans to fight, but also allows us to learn about their alien origins and cultures as the game progresses. The first will make things interesting from a gameplay standpoint, and the other will make the story interesting.

If you want to confine the game to only include one race, then you here are the one that has issues with other races...

Amazing... just amazing...

EDIT:

I... yeah... I still can't ... just... wow..

[yerkyerk]

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious hooby, because that's extremely far fetched. But if you reason like that, I think you can transform pretty much any game with a goal in it into a racist game. Even Tetris would be a game where you use the oppressed colored masses to keep eachother down... in fact, I'll take you up on the offer; name any game with a goal that cannot possibly be viewed as a racist game.

[hooby]

Originally Posted by yerkyerk

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious hooby, because that's extremely far fetched. But if you reason like that, I think you can transform pretty much any game with a goal in it into a racist game. Even Tetris would be a game where you use the oppressed colored masses to keep eachother down... in fact, I'll take you up on the offer; name any game with a goal that cannot possibly be viewed as a racist game.

Well, while playing Mass Effect, I chose to rescue the alien council in the end (and not let it die and replace it with a purely human council), I had no relationship with the human woman on board, but with the blue alien girl. Wherever the game would let me choose, I did nothing to strengthen the position of the human race in the universe.

The way I played the game, there were a whole lot of aliens, all from very different races, working together to stop the "biggest, baddest guy". That was the good part.

On the other hand, that biggest, baddest guy was from an entirely different race, which was like "evil by default", and had therefore to be destroyed. And all those who where helping him, where under sort of its mind-control - and not acting on their own will. That was the part I didn't care for that much.

(Edit: And if you didn't load a save game, Mass Effect 2 assumed that you had slept with the human girl, and replaced the council by humans - since that's what most players would do.)

I'd have preferred if the "enemies" where just a group of common people - made up of the same races that make up your own group of heroes, that are just unscrupulous in their greed and quest for more power and money.

That just seems more believable, more realistic kind of "evil" than having some strange race, which has "being evil" as sort of a built in racial feature...

An even better take on the whole thing would be, if the game never clearly stated if your goals really where "superior" to those you oppose, and if - in the long run - it wouldn't possibly have been better, if you lost, and the others won. (Shadow of the Colossus, anyone?).

I really just don't like that central idea of "We are the good people, and we have to unite against the others, the bad guys, and fight them."

That kind of thinking is so common, sooo widespread, that people don't even seem to ever question it.
(Weapons of Mass destruction, anyone?)

But I do. Maybe I'm thinking to much "into" it... But well, that's me.
I have a problem with that making a black-white issue of everything.

I also have a problem with the typical fantasy race of orcs.
They have dark skin, they do shamanic rituals, they are strong but dumb, their music is mainly made by drums and rythm instruments, and they are evil.
Is it really to far fetched to see certain parallels in there?

[yerkyerk]

Well, I for one, do think you're looking too deep into it. But that's my opinion. I thought that there would be humans who have betrayed you and joined one of the opposing forces that threaten humanity. So there's moral ambiguity.

And why wouldn't they threaten humanity? Perhaps they look upon humankind as humankind looks upon cattle.. seems somewhat logical for a race that consider themselves superior. There could be the protesters ofcourse, but since we know so little about these species it's hard to tell pretty much anything about how it will play out.

Also, it's an action RPG in the style of Diablo; the focus is on hacking and slashing, not really on any roleplaying diplomatic elements. You want to bash monsters. Who says you're doing the right thing, perhaps it's better if humanity dies.

I always wondered that in TQ btw. You just seem to be a pointless projectile and although it seemed you were supposed to be the good guy, it never felt like that. Villagers were, if ever, only mildly thankful of your actions and you, seemingly needlessly killed a whole lot of creatures. Think of it; the first satyrs you meet attack a horse, not you or any other human. Perhaps they were just hungry. The next batch of satyrs you meet are running, UNARMED, towards a village where they get slaughtered. Than the village chieftain orders you to destroy an entire clan. Next you meet a shepherd who said his friend was captured. Instead of questioning why they captured (and not killed) his friend, you proceed to slaughter every one of them. The list goes on and on... if you like to think that humankind is not necessarily the good side, there are plenty of times to see this in Titan Quest, although I'm sure all of them were unplanned by the writers. There's just so little room for character development (as opposed to skill development) in these types of games, I can't imagine it's worth bothering offering too many morally ambiguous choices. Kill first, ask questions later.

[hooby]

I'm only talking about slight tendencies here. It's subtle, like an almost unnoticable undertone. But as faint as it may be - it still is there.

It's not explicit, it's definitely not a sort of racist propaganda... it's rather like something subconscious that people are so used to, they couldn't notice it. It's definitely unintended...

It's not limited to games - I see even more of this in movies and TV. And less subtle and less veiled in politics.

But it's far too frequent to be just a coincidence. I believe it reflects certain fears well stored away deep within peoples minds. But if it wasn't there, it wouldn't resonate, and make people feel a thrill when experiencing it.

It's nothing that would stop me from buying GD.

But that doesn't mean I have to like it. And I see no reason to stop from pointing it out so that others might notice it too.

[Renevent]

Maybe I missed this mentioned about Grim Dawn before...but are Chthonians followers of Cthulhu?

Originally Posted by hooby

Why has "different" always to be equal to "bad"? Why can't different races work together? Why has the big enemy always to be another race - because of their other culture and their different views on life?

Different doesn't always equate to bad...and there are many movies/games/books/ect where the 'bad guy' is an enemy within and many movies/games/books/ect where other races do work together.

And your question is silly...from what little we know it's not because they are 'different'...but because they are both trying to destroy the human race!

I mean c'mon man lol...

Originally Posted by GrimDawnFAQ

Cairn has become ground zero of an eternal war between two otherworldly powers, one seeking to use human bodies as a resource, the other intent upon destroying the human race before that can happen. This cataclysmic war has not only decimated human civilization but is warping the very fabric of reality and, in its wake, giving life to new horrors.

[Shinrou]

Originally Posted by Renevent

Maybe I missed this mentioned about Grim Dawn before...but are Chthonians followers of Cthulhu?

Haha, excatly the same thing flowed into my mind when I read out that Chthonian-word...