Pondering: how open is too open?

[medierra]

One thing we've done to ensure a better flow for the world and reduce potential to get completely lost is to make each area somewhat self-contained. Instead of being a wide-open world where areas just sort of flow into one another, areas are mostly enclosed with a few choke-points that lead out into further areas. This helps to make it more obvious when you're transitioning from one area to another.

[PatMan33]

I was always pleased with the way The Witcher handled its environments. They were somewhat linear, with two or three very clear entrance/exit points. However, the areas in between those main arteries were always very dense and filled with lots of hidden caves, houses, the occasional dungeon, et cetera.

Not saying it should be exactly like that, but there is definitely a good bit of wisdom to be taken from those excellent RPGs.

Sometimes there won't be anything in a particular location. It happens. That's how the real world works. But there should always be a hidden location or two in every semi-important area and more obvious locations that contain their own small quests in the less-important locales.

[Asgardhora]

Originally Posted by medierra

One thing we've done to ensure a better flow for the world and reduce potential to get completely lost is to make each area somewhat self-contained. Instead of being a wide-open world where areas just sort of flow into one another, areas are mostly enclosed with a few choke-points that lead out into further areas. This helps to make it more obvious when you're transitioning from one area to another.

This idea fits perfectly this type of games. You cant make the world fully open like an Elderscrolls type of game where you can watch the horizon to find your way. These choke points and landmarks will fit perfectly in an open arpg. I really admire you guys dare to take such risks and add a lot of such content that many players usually don't see in such types of games!

[Doctor]

Hi guys, I'm new, but while I'm still deciding wether to spend 35 or 85$ on this game, I'm was having some thoughts about this.
I like the idea of having large areas with single transition points, but to give the game a lot of replayability, I would love to have some kind of "arcade" mode in addition to that.
Basically a mode where there are no definitive border, the story and most of the world building is reduced or completely left out, and the whole world is one big chunk of random generated, themed areas that flow into each other.
So you can explore a new world every time you play it and have a lot of suprising encounters. Like a big playground of aRPG awesomeness for infinite coop games
But as I said, I would love to have it in addition to the normal mode. Maybe as an expansion, maybe as a new game+ option or something similar, but not as the main mode to get familiar with the game.
Overall I'm pretty excited for this project, looks like a lot of good work so far!

[Sensuki]

I know this is my first post on the forum, so likely my opinion will be ignored but concerning the OP question

Originally Posted by medierra

Currently pondering how "open" the levels should be. I've created a rather large expanse of swampland with the idea of hiding little quests and unique locations in the remote corners of it. However, I'm starting to grow concerned that more "casual" players might stray off the path, get lost, and not know where to go.

I don't know if this really applies to game development, but I think that the key to making a high quality product (or something that is revered for quality) seems to be to completely disregard the casual customer and just aim your game to please your targetted customer.
You have said Grim Dawn is a niche game aiming to please ARPG fans, specifically it seems the people who played Titan Quest, particularly the veterans of the game who have been immensed in it for years.
My example of this is David Simon's approach to making his television shows (particularly The Wire). Complete disregard of the casual audience, not concerned with ratings or adding in hooks (such as violence or sex, the show did have some but nothing gratitious) to bring in extra viewers. He focused on making the show authentic in the eyes of the people he was portraying (the people of Baltimore for The Wire and New Orleans for Treme). And he was primarily concerned with the quality of the drama.
As a result, the show was received with open arms by his target audience, although the show didn't really win any awards and didn't continue to gain viewers after it's first season. But long after the show's length, it is now considered to be the best TV show ever made.

So I would say, (on this issue and others) to just go with what you're aiming for. People who play the game through once might miss some of these hidden areas or quests that you're talking about. But the people who bother to explore the area, or look up all the game's secrets on the internet will find them.
I don't think that someone can 'complain' that an area was hard to find. If the intent is that it is a 'secret level', like the Diablo 2 secret cow level, or that underground passage in Immortal Throne, then it is specifically for the game fans.

If you're worried about the level of excitement of forward progression versus lateral progression, then the forward progression just needs to be good as well :P

If it's good, people will play it etc.

[Greymous3]

being a doctor, i imagine that'd be like deciding between evian and perrier at brunch. =p

but yeah, i think one of the reasons TQ has stayed on my comp, while other games with random environmental gens haven't, is the lush and detailed worlds the designers built. they seem to be able to stand the test of time, looking incredible, even after six years in the evolution of computer graphics... an eternity to remain on par with other titles.

what seems to make up for that static environment are the modding tools and the active (and enthusiastic) modding community. i'd say that might be even better than a randomly generated sandbox or survival mode in some cases, because those mods can have a lot of direction and TLC put into them.

Originally Posted by Doctor

Hi guys, I'm new, but while I'm still deciding wether to spend 35 or 85$ on this game, I'm was having some thoughts about this.
I like the idea of having large areas with single transition points, but to give the game a lot of replayability, I would love to have some kind of "arcade" mode in addition to that.
Basically a mode where there are no definitive border, the story and most of the world building is reduced or completely left out, and the whole world is one big chunk of random generated, themed areas that flow into each other.
So you can explore a new world every time you play it and have a lot of suprising encounters. Like a big playground of aRPG awesomeness for infinite coop games
But as I said, I would love to have it in addition to the normal mode. Maybe as an expansion, maybe as a new game+ option or something similar, but not as the main mode to get familiar with the game.
Overall I'm pretty excited for this project, looks like a lot of good work so far!

[Doctor]

Well, I think it would be a nice addition. You could even insert the same dungeons the main game has (if it has any) scattered over the world to have some kind of continuity and test your character against a known force.
I think you could create a lot of playtime without wasting a lot of development time.
But then again I probably have no clue how much work it is to build a random generator capable of making playable worlds.

But imagine what modders could do when the random generator and it's systems are in place!
Modding the generator to everyones taste, making maps as big as ES: Arena :P

-Just daydreaming here-

[343GuiltyFart]

D3 is essentially a return to the series of boxes, and seems to still work quite well. I think choke points would work well to accomplish the open, yet "boxed" architecture you seem to be leaning toward. Most of the fun with oblivion and skyrim was exploring, but those were first person, less action oriented games. Additionally I feel as though open world would hurt your ability to tell a coherent, engaging story

[Greymous3]

Yeah, that'd be pretty cool. =]

Originally Posted by Doctor

But imagine what modders could do when the random generator and it's systems are in place!
Modding the generator to everyones taste, making maps as big as ES: Arena :P

-Just daydreaming here-

[Clown]

Originally Posted by shawnmck

I do have one request though...

For the love of GOD, please do NOT put any weird or strange levels in GD that are like that one level in Diablo 2 that had those stair cases & everything else looked like it was in outer space.
I wanted to scratch out my eyes every time I played that level.

If you do anything like that then I will hunt you down & force feed you lead based paint.


BTW
I honestly don't know what brought this up, but for some strange reason I can't explain, I had the fear that you were planning a level just like that, or similar enough.
That level in Diablo 2 with the staircases in outer space (shudders) is one of my most despised levels / areas of any game throughout the history of games, & I've been playing video games for 25 years (PC & all home consoles).

The arcane sanctuary was awesome, felt like you had been thrown into an Escher painting on LSD.