Pondering: how open is too open?

[medierra]

Currently pondering how "open" the levels should be. I've created a rather large expanse of swampland with the idea of hiding little quests and unique locations in the remote corners of it. However, I'm starting to grow concerned that more "casual" players might stray off the path, get lost, and not know where to go.

I also question the balance between the excitement of lateral exploration vs. the satisfaction of apparent forward progression through a more linear world. Oblivion was a lot of fun to explore, for example, but I never felt that satisfaction associated with "getting to the next level".

I really liked the "series of boxes" level progressing that existed in D2 as opposed to the more linear and sometimes very narrow trail you were on in TQ. However, it is difficult trying to transition the D2 style layout to a 3d game with more realistic geography.

I think breaking it up into smaller, uniquely named chunks might help. I'm thinking we probably need a much improved map that shows region names and such.

[Azrael]

Is it currently set up so that you can travel to the "end-game area" right off the bat? I would think that the best way to do it would be to have separate areas, where the more advanced areas are guarded by higher level enemies. This way the barrier is not an artificial one, and it is still possible to go anywhere

As far as players getting lost, just make sure that there is a good marker system for where you need to go for your current/next quest. However for the side quests make it so that you need to actually find them.

Gotta go now so I have to cut this short =/

[Void(null)]

Is there such a thing as a casual aRPG fan?

As long as you clearly mark the beaten path so that people know the way that they should be going, then you can make the rest of the area as open as you wish.

Areas where the grass is worn, fallen down walkways across larger water expanses and various easy to find landmarks would make traversing a swamp interesting while not letting the player get too lost.

Should they wish to go off the beaten track and explore then there are risks (Getting lost) and rewards (Side Quests) for doing so.

[Confuted]

IMO TQ was big enough that it felt like I was exploring a decent amount and advancing forward fast enough that I felt like I was actually getting somewhere. Some indicators of locations such as random signs or torches (which never burn out for some reason) would help me as a player not feel like I've been trekking through the same flat level swamp the whole time and it would give a sense of direction or site marker (Immortal Throne did a fairly good job with that by adding ruins and huge trees [that were hard to see through sometimes]). The area before Athens in TQ and just before that were decently large and wide for me...though I wasn't much of a fan of the space between M and F. The places that I felt really enclosed where at the beginning-ish of TQ and at Elysium.

As far as maps are concerned, there wasn't much of a problem with TQ's map because there was no real need to backtrack. However with GD's placement of quests in remote areas, it would be nice to have the map display things more prominently. A lot of colors and locations on the TQ map blended in with everything else which made it hard to see exactly where that quest NPC was when I forgot to revisit them (nowadays I just know all the maps anyways that it doesn't matter). Putting region lines on the map would help in finding stuff but only if the quest log gives some notation of the region name or description of what the region should look like (the npc doesn't give a name but says the location is a swamp with a lot of giant spiders)

In a nutshell though...I think a good demo would suffice in receiving a more accurate response or a map screenshot

[PinkFrog]

It IS a bit difficult to discuss this theoretically. (and i laughed at the demo remark, very clever! )

Anyway, as this is probably a matter of preference at foremost, we can all just post what we like and you can stir a delicious soup out of it.
I didn't like the narrow maps in TQ very much. I'm talking about the layout, not the artistic design, of course, which was amazing. This is because when i play a game, especially games that have "rp" somewhere in their genre-description, i want to have my own personal story going on inside the sand-box of the game. You know, each time i create and play a character there should be a way of playing it differently this time. Other items, other skills, speed of progression etc.. And TQ didn't offer much variance in progressing through the world.
When i played Sacred 1 (which i did a lot) i truly loved the fact that each character totally went a different way through the world (pretty much like oblivion i guess. I only played that one a few hours so i cant tell, really). Sure, there are chokepoints for the story, but they feel very different each time because i come from a very different place. This made the game valuable for endless hours. And not just loot-grind but actual adventuring, if you know what i mean. And the best is really to go to a place in the game where you have the feeling you're so far away from the main path that you're the first player ever here and then you find some unique content like a quest or a special mob. Thats an amazing experience.
Now there is a huge difference in "getting lost" in a 2d game and a 3d game. In 2d games you always know where you are regarding the general setting of the world. In 3d, with camera rotation, you can easily run back or in circles before you even know it. I can see that. But for me, the benefits from exploration outweigh the danger of loosing some time from backtracking by far. But i'm a very patient player.
What to do with players who want to progress quickly? Well, there's always the main path, isn't there? With lamp posts on each side etc... so if you follow that you'll be fine.

I think there's one funny psychological problem, though, with levels that are somewhere between narrow and open. I like to "complete" stuff in games. And clearing the fog of war is certainly one of them. So, if the levels are as narrow as in TQ, that was easily done and felt good doing. In an open world, clearing the fog becomes impossible unless you are really like a crazy lawnmower, so there's no pressure to do it. But if the levels are somewhere in between then you will probably constantly have the feeling that you need to clear the map but its too far to be fun to do as it takes ages but it's still so close that you know you miss good stuff if you don't. Maybe it's just me, though.

Bottom line: i'm all for wide open areas with hidden stuff like small quests and the occasional special boss. Narrow levels are good too, for other reasons. I don't like something inbetween. In any case, there's one thing that should be considered when making big maps: don't create blind alleys nothing feels more like: you went wrong, sir! like hitting a wall somewhere and needing to backtrack a huge part.

[MageMaster]

Even talking to an npc and telling him your lost to get a hint in which direction to go would be nice. But how would they know if you were lost to start with, always having the option to ask someone where do I go now, I don't think would be that great. So that is a catch 22 in my book.

I travel by fog of war alot, just due to that I know I have not been there yet, I don't want to miss some nice golden chest just because I took a shortcut. I like the way TQ would re-fog the map when running back through a successive time.

I like the idea of really having to scour the areas to find quests, hidden locations, as it really adds to some of the other ideas posted in the past.

I don't recall if there has been posts about a quest compass or not that always points to the primary/ secondary quest or selected quest that is active in a log book or something.

How about a spell that would summon a "Knowledge" NPC for lack of a better wordd that would go to the nearest town seeking info regarding quest hints, location hints, direction to go kinds of things, and would return in 5 minutes or so(proportional to distance from town) to let you know. This would only be usable once ever hour maybe?

I like the map being open and being able to go anywhere and not just have one road to the end. In two worlds, you could travel to the end area, but could not enter due to not having done all the needed quests to get there. True the monsters were very hard to kill or even fatal to you if you were not leveled high enough yet, but made for interesting game play.

Sometimes it does get frustrating if you are not sure where to go next.

[mamba]

Originally Posted by medierra

Currently pondering how "open" the levels should be. I've created a rather large expanse of swampland with the idea of hiding little quests and unique locations in the remote corners of it. However, I'm starting to grow concerned that more "casual" players might stray off the path, get lost, and not know where to go.

I like the region concept and having quests (nothing essential, just something fun, exciting and with decent loot) in the far reaches as a reward for actually going there.

I never got lost in any game with a decent map (and rarely in those without decent maps), so I would not be overly worried about that.

Having regions through which you progress either along the main path or by roaming the entire region would be my preferred choice - I will always explore anything however

[shawnmck]

I still like the idea of having more than one path that ultimately leads to the same area (branching paths). That way the player doesn't really get lost, and it makes re-plays more fun.
But I wouldn't want multiple paths throughout the entire game, just here & there occasionally.

But I trust you Medierra 100%, to balance out the game perfectly.
I personally had no issues with Titan Quest at all, and felt that they were designed flawlessly. However, some did (& will) complain that they would prefer maps that were always changing (a la Torchlight), which to me just makes the game world seem far less real and more maze-like. I swear, in TL I felt like a lab rat in a maze that was trying to get to some cheese.
TQ by comparison felt a bit more linear, but also more realistic. I'll take that over randomization any day.
But I know that everyone's personal tastes are different, so no matter what you do, some will always take issue with it.
But from what I hear, Grim Dawn sounds like it is headed in the right direction. More linear main levels, but with some randomization of the dungeon areas. Sounds like a great compromise to me.

As for size...
I say mix it up.
Have some bigger, and have some smaller with branching paths. Keep a level of variety that feels fresh and exciting.
That's my opinion anyways.

[Sacred]

I like that you have concerns like that.
I'd say D2 could've used more, TQ was good, Sacred 2 could've used way less.

I'm more in for the level of progress in the main story and the ability to search every corner of the map.

Mixing open areas with narrow paths is also good, remember some of them from TQ, after exploring for a while you came across a small path you had to follow, had a nice feeling about them.
I think you'll get it just right

[shawnmck]

I do have one request though...

For the love of GOD, please do NOT put any weird or strange levels in GD that are like that one level in Diablo 2 that had those stair cases & everything else looked like it was in outer space.
I wanted to scratch out my eyes every time I played that level.

If you do anything like that then I will hunt you down & force feed you lead based paint.


BTW
I honestly don't know what brought this up, but for some strange reason I can't explain, I had the fear that you were planning a level just like that, or similar enough.
That level in Diablo 2 with the staircases in outer space (shudders) is one of my most despised levels / areas of any game throughout the history of games, & I've been playing video games for 25 years (PC & all home consoles).