Go Back   Grim Dawn Forums > Grim Dawn Gameplay > Ideas and Feedback

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:28 PM
unampho unampho is offline
Acolyte
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 29
Cool Is grinding for loot really a good mechanic?

What does hiding legendaries behind a grindwall really do?

I'd understand if sets were behind challenge walls, but grind alone seems more like an archaic action rpg tradition only necessary when lacking sufficient content.

BTW, I enjoy Grim Dawn and think this aspect is good enough, especially with the viability of some less gear-dependent builds (retaliation warder), but I'm more arguing against the entire practice for action RPGs and loot-grinders in general.

Like, imagine if the entire markovian set was behind a fancy boss or area.

Or, imagine that once you hit level 80, you get one set from a special vendor.

I guess I'm just asking if there is actually value to keeping items behind a grind wall. I know it's tradition at this point, but is it merely a holdover from an archaic need to spoof content with randomness and time-sinking instead of having more "actual content"?

It's not a huge problem for Grim Dawn, I suppose. (It's really not a problem, considering crucible drops.) So, let's maybe open this up to the genre in general. As a huge contrast to get an idea for what I mean, consider Overwatch. It's the style of game where you can literally sit down on a fresh account and demonstrate any level of skill from the starting gate, with zero time-based barriers on your ability to express your skill.

Last edited by unampho; 07-21-2017 at 04:29 PM. Reason: clarification and additional information, typo
  #2  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:31 PM
unampho unampho is offline
Acolyte
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 29
Default

Even bigger reason this isn't a problem for Grim Dawn in particular - You can just hack in shit if you think that makes the game better for you. I know I will hack a legendary set in once my toon hits 75 or 80.
  #3  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:37 PM
Chibba's Avatar
Chibba Chibba is offline
Advocate
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 556
Default

I don't like the randomness when I need a specific upgrade and just won't drop it.

I like the system in DD the best where you would always know where to go for a specific pet or weapon and then farm until you get a really good version (negative projectile speed or dwarf sized swords....). GD kinda has that with MIs so I would simply enjoy way more MIs so you can target farm things for your build.

To your question I think ARPGs without some randomness would be way too short. It is also a good motivation to go for that perfect double affix MI.
  #4  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:46 PM
unampho unampho is offline
Acolyte
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 29
Default

I actually would be quite happy with your version (farming for "just-the-right-one!").

It seems to provide the benefits of grind (if you want the particular thing and you don't mind repetition, there's your content) without as much harm (if you just need the +3 to the right skill with nice resistances and you want to complete the set, BAM, you're good).
  #5  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:50 PM
Demophile Demophile is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 190
Default

A large part of the point to making a portion of items hard or time-consuming to get is to serve a market of people who want to work more for their shiny objects. Believe it or not, lots of players don't like what I understand is the current way D3 works.

Grim Dawn caters to the opposite end of the ARPG spectrum - people who want built variety, mechanical depth, gear that feels and is important, exceptional challenges, and a game economy designed around single-player (otherwise we're also mostly talking about PoE).

Variety in how games work, including the time taken to acquire gear, only improves the ARPG market. Players can find a game that suits them. New players can be drawn into the genre via something smooth and mild then go on to enjoy something with more of whatever they like about ARPGs. Without that kind of variety all games start to look similar - catering to the common denominator.
  #6  
Old 07-21-2017, 05:36 PM
ibugsy's Avatar
ibugsy ibugsy is offline
Apostle
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unampho View Post
What does hiding legendaries behind a grindwall really do?

I'd understand if sets were behind challenge walls, but grind alone seems more like an archaic action rpg tradition only necessary when lacking sufficient content.
Perhaps it is an archaic feature of ARPG's whose time has come. Maybe/maybe not.

The wonder of this game, is if you don't like something you can mod it, or use a mod. You can use mamba's GDStash to craft a Legendary. Note it's still randomly generated, but at least you can do it multiple times.
__________________
  • Forum Etiquette : http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
  • Forum Guidelines : http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1
  • Reporting Bugs (Please Read) : http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8053
  #7  
Old 07-21-2017, 05:44 PM
mamba's Avatar
mamba mamba is offline
Praetorian
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,111
Default

What is the alternative, drop everything during one playthrough and finding a new unique every 5 minutes ?

I am not sure what the difference between a grind and a challenge wall is. A challenge wall to me is just a wall you have not grinded enough for already to be able to tackle it, so just a different name for more grind
  #8  
Old 07-21-2017, 05:49 PM
Chibba's Avatar
Chibba Chibba is offline
Advocate
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 556
Default

Challenges usually have a certain setup and some sort of system, also you may need to use a strategy or develop some mechanical skill to overcome it.

Grind is usually more mindless and repetitive, so it feels less rewarding.
  #9  
Old 07-21-2017, 06:07 PM
ibugsy's Avatar
ibugsy ibugsy is offline
Apostle
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chibba View Post
Grind is usually more mindless and repetitive, so it feels less rewarding.
Is it? Once you get the item you wanted? I'd think that would be like "holy f**k! Yeah!"

You worked hard to find the item - the hours of grind - you get it - *yawn*? Doesn't seem right.
__________________
  • Forum Etiquette : http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
  • Forum Guidelines : http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1
  • Reporting Bugs (Please Read) : http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8053
  #10  
Old 07-21-2017, 06:35 PM
unampho unampho is offline
Acolyte
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 29
Cool why challenge is different than grind

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamba View Post
What is the alternative, drop everything during one playthrough and finding a new unique every 5 minutes ?

I am not sure what the difference between a grind and a challenge wall is. A challenge wall to me is just a wall you have not grinded enough for already to be able to tackle it, so just a different name for more grind
I'll address both. For the first point, let's suppose that is what I mean. How is that really different than waiting 5 hours? I think the amount of time it takes is pretty meaningless outside of the waste of time I must incur. If I want to play Grim Dawn for 5 hours because I like it, that's great. If I feel obligated for a piece of equipment, that's not great. I'd hope the game draws me in using more than a mere skinner box.

As for the second point, here's an example. A challenge wall doesn't just mean "a hard boss". Sure, I can play until I have high level and health to beat a boss, but if the boss is designed well, maybe I merely read the attacks and spec correctly to beat the boss, using my cleverness instead of my willingness to invest loads of time.

(This is actually why I also wanted bosses to allow stuns, even if a limited form. The battle should have a way to be a challenge that doesn't boil down to time-investment.)
Closed Thread

Tags
balance, grinding, loot

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Grim Dawn ©2018 Crate Entertainment, LLC.
vBulletin® 3.8.4 ©2000-2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.