#11  
Old 01-15-2010, 05:01 PM
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Why not make farming bosses obsolete? Make it so bosses drops certain items 100% of the time.

Buuut to make farming a bit more fun make it so that the best items drop from "Champion" monster that randomly spawn within an act. That means you have to play through the whole act or until you find the "Champion" monsters...

I duno if it would work or make farming less fun...its just a thought.
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Chameleon View Post
Why not make farming bosses obsolete? Make it so bosses drops certain items 100% of the time.
This is an interesting idea, and I kinda like it but it gets a little boring. Eg; Borderlands sorta has this feature. Key bosses(like the intro miniboss, bonehead or whatever his name is) ALWAYS, drops the boneshredder. I killed him like 5 times cause the first time he dropped this awesome gun. Second time, he dropped it again. Third time I figured it must be the same thing every time. I stopped after the 5th. I mean, yeah it's really cool, provided A) You don't have the weapon already and B) you can kill him. But once you get it, whats the point of revisiting? I guess it'd remove the farming aspect and make more like, if you can kill this dude, you deserve this loot. Which is neat, unless you're super uber powerful and can just waltz through and own everything, kinda makes it lame.

Also, I'm a bit curious about what people think about this prospect(i know some people, like the I KILLED HIM ALREADY WHY DID HE RESPAWN people, will hate it):

What if, there was a way to reset the spawns? To force the creatures you killed on your last farming run to respawn again so you can kill them over without the whole quit game/select character/load game thing? IF farming is a key aspect in the game, as it is in almost every RPG, maybe you can skip one of the more annoying steps? I dunno how this could be implemented thoguh... maybe you travel to a certain area and then go back to find every monster has returned, but it'd have to be set up in a way so that you can go to town, but scrolls or pots, whatever, and come back to your still deceased enemies.
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
What if, there was a way to reset the spawns? To force the creatures you killed on your last farming run to respawn again so you can kill them over without the whole quit game/select character/load game thing? IF farming is a key aspect in the game, as it is in almost every RPG, maybe you can skip one of the more annoying steps? I dunno how this could be implemented thoguh... maybe you travel to a certain area and then go back to find every monster has returned, but it'd have to be set up in a way so that you can go to town, but scrolls or pots, whatever, and come back to your still deceased enemies.
One of the items on the tech list is proxies that can respawn and I think a very good use for them would be in "challenge" areas. They could either be set up sort of like MMO respawns or it may be possible to craft some sort of setup where groups of enemies are periodically pouring into the level through one-way entrances - the proverbial enemies crawling of a hole in the ground or jumping down on you from a ledge. Maybe there are monster-spawner objects that you can destroy to end the flood of enemies and move on or leave standing if you want to hang around and fight.
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:46 PM
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Ah, that sounds like a great idea. Something like those Dark Obelisks from TQ, right? Would be pretty sweet.
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Old 01-15-2010, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
I think a completely different solution that might work better would be to create special "challenge" areas or dungeons where the enemies are tougher than normal but also have significantly higher chances of dropping good items. Then basically balance the difficulty and drop rates such that it is more effect to farm an entire area like that then to just repeatedly kill the same boss. In my opinion this seems like a better direction since it isn't adding a new "rule" to the underlying game mechanics that might seem to penalize certain players. Instead it seems like a universally positive addition that, at the same time, would help to reduce the monotony of performing runs on an individual boss. I also still like the idea of making it so that each area has a different range of possible uber items that can drop.
I like the idea of an area that has a chance to drop an item, as opposed to just one monster, but it's still sort of the same thing. And I'd be wary of creating areas that are more exciting than the main campaign and can be repeatedly farmed (ala those torchlight dungeons). Yerky and I added some challenging secret areas to TQ in Underlord, and farmers don't like them for their length (since all they care about is getting the new items, and wouldn't be playing the game at all if there was a mod that gave them the items), and new players struggle with the difficulty in them (the one I made has no indication that it's an option area, besides being difficult to find), and feel compelled to complete it, no matter how much it brutalizes their character. :O

As far as the drop-rate-from-exp thing, I didn't think it was a penalty, so much as a boost. That, lower level characters got an increase to the magical droprate for taking on greater challenges, not that overlevelled heroes would get nothing from farming a boss.

Anyway, it is a big, core change, which is why I was all about voting for it, since you're in the early development of GD, which is where stuff like this can be accounted for, instead of trying to add something like that onto the game afterwards.

Anyway, I am procrastinating work now. I just want to say that my first time through these games, I don't like to stop to farm much; I'm always excited by what I'll find in the next area. That's when the game is most fun. I look at the challenges long-time players put up to return some excitement to the game, and besides the obvious "hardcore," there are challenges like live off only what you find, and you must go from health fountain to health fountain, and cannot go back to farm an area, you can't twink, etc.. And most of these things are creating gameplay that more closely resembles the first time playing through the game, where you had to live off what you found, and you couldn't twink, and you didn't go back to farm areas. The idea that the better loot is had by taking on the next big challenge is one that appeals to me, as it seems it would keep you moving forward more often, which seems like it would keep players in the difficulty pocket you want them in.
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Old 01-15-2010, 06:57 PM
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Generally I only see the farming dynamic really coming into play for the higher difficulty modes. I assume people spend most of their time farming typhon and by that point it isn't as if the farming is interfering with forward progress since there isn't really anywhere else to go except perhaps to another difficulty level if you aren't already in legendary.

I am having a bit of a struggle now trying to determine how closely we should stick to the tried and true formula of making progress through a relatively linear world vs. creating more of an open-world sandbox where the emphasis is on exploration and character development. In the later scenario, progress through the game would be based more on powering up your character than fighting your way over a long distance down a linear path.
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:05 PM
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The whole open-world vs linear thing is kind of a weird argument. Open world is ALWAYS cooler than linear, of course. But, at the same time, if one area has higher level dudes than the other, it kinda forces you to go to the other place anyway, right? Similarly, if BOTH places had the same level dudes, or the dudes were equal to the player's level, it would be somewhat fun, however the whole "i like to feel epic by endgame" comes into play and it makes it kinda lame.(like endgame Oblivion characters where the creatures overpower you in high levels.)

I for one, really enjoy the exploration aspect. Having enemies similarly leveled, is great and all, but there should be a min/max cap for that. For instance, if you go to a place that was for level 20's as a level 50, the guys shouldn't raise all the way to 50, but maybe cap at around 35 or something. *shrug* I really don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
Having enemies similarly leveled, is great and all, but there should be a min/max cap for that. For instance, if you go to a place that was for level 20's as a level 50, the guys shouldn't raise all the way to 50, but maybe cap at around 35 or something. *shrug* I really don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.
That's how it works in Grim Dawn. =)
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:02 PM
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Malpheas Malpheas is offline
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
Generally I only see the farming dynamic really coming into play for the higher difficulty modes. I assume people spend most of their time farming typhon and by that point it isn't as if the farming is interfering with forward progress since there isn't really anywhere else to go except perhaps to another difficulty level if you aren't already in legendary.
That's my stance on farming, more or less.

It's an endgame activity, from what my activity has been. I think you should be rewarded for your efforts. As well, mf might be limited to an inventory item that gives downsides as well as mf. So as to drive the point home that farming isn't the whole of the game. More risk is more gain. Like a challenge quest, for example.

I liked the mechanic that was the first drop off a boss gave a better loot selection and that subsequent runs were reduced in value. That was TQ and Diablo, etc.

The one thing I REALLY liked about Sacred 1 (and 2) was the survival bonus, a reward to mf based on the length of time between your character's last death and now; also enemies did more damage and the level difference between you and the enemy was higher. Higher reward based on risk.

Also: For farming, one of the many things that BrotherLaz, creator of Median XL (and all previous versions), did VERY well was make item type drop biases for certain uber areas. So you wanted something you had to go to a certain place and farm, each area offering a challenge of a different type. However, these areas were all endgame locations.

Also: I'm in favour of removing rebirth fountains and going from a way point instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munderbunny
I like the idea of an area that has a chance to drop an item, as opposed to just one monster, but it's still sort of the same thing.
I like this idea as well.

Also: Here is my quote from Tq.net forums "On Farming"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impulsand the import from Tq.net
Nah, how about getting rid of unique items altogether. But make items a reagent based process, like say, Legend of Mana.

You can still make standard type items (of specific mods and other qualities), but please make it a little more work based; other than farming for certain items. Although, this way, you're still farming reagents. Better yet, make the reagents drop from certain areas depending: Bones - skeletons or whatnot, Wings - a demon or some enemy with wings, etc. For the truly rare items, make the reagents from them drops from non-boss creatures of a rare type. I dunno. I think the formulas were a great idea in TQ, but expand that a little.

On the other hand, Yes, I think that's a decent idea, to push for progression through the game. But then to make item sets becomes a little harder to obtain.
Just as an addend to my post.

Last edited by Malpheas; 01-15-2010 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
*shrug* I really don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.
No, I think you do know... too much for your own good!
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