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  #11  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:57 PM
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Avatar of Dreeg Avatar of Dreeg is offline
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Originally Posted by Norzan View Post
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I might remember this incorrectly as restricted to 2h (ranged + melee), which would intuitively make sense due to how it scales. It is very probable that I remember the debate wrong. You are right that the freeze resistance was the main culprit, but the dagger / sword variant was simply the most popular one. You could replicate it with dagger/tome, sceptre/tome (and even pistol/tome). Now, even if you stack all sources of -freeze you can get, you won't put her below 95%, which makes you wonder how useful the Night's embrace gimmick is. I haven't seen the amulet anywhere in any new build, but 0.1 sec freeze vs. nemeses for an amulet slot doesn't seem very competitive.

The most interesting part is how that amulet was nerfed right before 1.0.0.9., when fire pet builds became a thing. I can only imagine the 2s videos if freeze resistance wasn't checked and you could OFF MQ.

Last edited by Avatar of Dreeg; 12-07-2017 at 09:00 PM.
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  #12  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:05 PM
Norzan Norzan is offline
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Originally Posted by Avatar of Dreeg View Post
I might remember this incorrectly as restricted to 2h (ranged + melee), which would intuitively make sense due to how it scales. It is very probable that I remember the debate wrong. You are right that the freeze resistance was the main culprit, but the dagger / sword variant was simply the most popular one. You could replicate it with dagger/tome, sceptre/tome (and even pistol/tome). Now, even if you stack all sources of -freeze you can get, you won't put her below 95%, which makes you wonder how useful the Night's embrace gimmick is. I haven't seen the amulet anywhere in any new build, but 0.1 sec freeze vs. nemeses for an amulet slot doesn't seem very competitive.

The most interesting part is how that amulet was nerfed right before 1.0.0.9., when fire pet builds became a thing. I can only imagine the 2s videos if freeze resistance wasn't checked and you could OFF MQ.
The most popular build doing the perma freeze thing used either two Crescent Moons or Crescent Moon + Deathmarked weapon. I think it was either in 1.0.0.7 or 1.0.0.8 (i'm leaning towards 7). Seriously, Moose could be perma frozen. A giant ice golem, perma frozen.

Then the Nemeses and Mad Queen freeze resist was upped enough to not be affected by the Night Embrace's debuff in the following update.
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  #13  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:03 AM
thepowerofmediocrity thepowerofmediocrity is offline
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Originally Posted by DaShiv View Post
You might consider testing replacing Mogdrogen with Manticore, Bysmiel, Staff, and either Murmur or Solael. I haven't done any number-crunching, but I suspect the RR/extra pet might outweigh Mogdrogen's bonuses since stacking so much flat damage turns each additional pet into a very significant DPS increase. Another hound can also help provide enough critical mass of pets to disrupt enemy pathing and hold chokes, especially since swarmlings are so small.
Would you please share the devotion path that gets you all four of those things? I assume it involves replacing Bat with Wretch? The way I have it, I can replace Mogdrogen for Manticore, Bysmiel, and Staff, but I don't have enough devotion points to pick Murmur or Solael. This route would likely be the best in terms of DPS, but I'd be very uncomfortable getting under 2700 DA and sacrificing a good leech tool, as survivability is what's killing my build in the first place.

I can also go for Aeon's Hourglass, and with it I can take either Bysmiel or Manticore, but not both. I was thinking Bysmiel because while losing out on additional 13% RR is rough, I get nearly 100% uptime on Bysmiel, so I gain a rougly permanent pet to help with body-blocking. In addition, I can cast my three heals on much shorter cooldowns, so sustainability is a lot higher. Finally, Aeon's gives me the most DA of the devotion choices, with 2800 (slightly larger than my initial build, which has 2750).

Note that all three of these choices has smaller crits (except the one with Staff), smaller OA and considerably smaller attack speed thanks to not having Mogdrogen (not to mention Quill is a really good devotion and it's great that it fits our devotion set-up perfectly).

My plan for now is hold out until v1.0.4.0 and see if the new gear brings about new damage sources / RR / pet crit or speed bonuses. From there, I'll consider the new information and determine which constellations are worth a second look.
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  #14  
Old 12-09-2017, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thepowerofmediocrity View Post
Would you please share the devotion path that gets you all four of those things? I assume it involves replacing Bat with Wretch? The way I have it, I can replace Mogdrogen for Manticore, Bysmiel, and Staff, but I don't have enough devotion points to pick Murmur or Solael.
http://www.grimtools.com/calc/1NX7eBBZ

It's pretty easy to pick them all up if you simply drop Raven. The trick with AoM devo paths is to focus on the big picture and not get too greedy with trying to collect every single useful T1/T2. For example, the Night King v1.0 reached its extreme DPS even without Raven and Panther for the extra OA/flat/crit, because it had a big picture plan to grab the biggest DPS boosts as efficiently as possible, then simply do what it can to fill in the rest.

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Originally Posted by thepowerofmediocrity View Post
This route would likely be the best in terms of DPS, but I'd be very uncomfortable getting under 2700 DA and sacrificing a good leech tool, as survivability is what's killing my build in the first place.
You can substitute Murmur in place of Solael above for a bit less DPS and 96 more effective DA, but I'm also a strong advocate for "the best defense is a good offense" when it comes to pet builds. Also, by increasing Twin Fangs damage via RR, Manticore will noticeably boost your survivability. As a comparison, the Night King v1.0 had 900% vit damage, 3.2k effective player OA, and -96 vit RR (-84 post-nerf) to power Twin Fangs. Best defense = offense, etc.

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Originally Posted by thepowerofmediocrity View Post
I can also go for Aeon's Hourglass, and with it I can take either Bysmiel or Manticore, but not both. I was thinking Bysmiel because while losing out on additional 13% RR is rough, I get nearly 100% uptime on Bysmiel, so I gain a rougly permanent pet to help with body-blocking. In addition, I can cast my three heals on much shorter cooldowns, so sustainability is a lot higher. Finally, Aeon's gives me the most DA of the devotion choices, with 2800 (slightly larger than my initial build, which has 2750).

Note that all three of these choices has smaller crits (except the one with Staff), smaller OA and considerably smaller attack speed thanks to not having Mogdrogen (not to mention Quill is a really good devotion and it's great that it fits our devotion set-up perfectly).
If it were me, I'd never try to sort this out in my head - it's a nightmare trying to visualize and weigh all the tradeoffs involved when it comes to pet builds. I typically do tons of A/B build testing -- first by spreadsheet to dramatically sort down the candidate list, then via direct playtesting (PV, MQ, and finally Gladiator only if the build handled the previous very well).

It's a lot like how obtaining "good rolls" for items isn't about getting very lucky, but simply about farming/keeping all the duplicates and picking the best ones (and blowing up the rest). Likewise, I went through 50+ Grimtool builds before finalizing v1.0 of the Night King, and I'm well over a couple dozen candidates (with very different strategies) for v2.0 thus far. Good spreadsheet use will hugely cut down on the number of build candidates that require actual playtesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepowerofmediocrity View Post
My plan for now is hold out until v1.0.4.0 and see if the new gear brings about new damage sources / RR / pet crit or speed bonuses. From there, I'll consider the new information and determine which constellations are worth a second look.
You can wait and see, but that's also a pretty good way of being let down by Crate. For all the whinging by melee builders about nerfs, pet builds have consistently been shown FAR more nerfs and FAR fewer new toys than all other build types. For example, how many new conversions were introduced in AoM -- dozens at least? over a hundred? -- and how many those were for pets? How many top-tier competitive builds in AoM are powered by new/improved Mythical legendary sets (too many awesome builds/sets to count), and how many top-tier competitive pet builds are? (Exactly none.)

Maybe this time will truly be different, but I'll believe it when I see it. As for myself, I'm certainly not relying on any patch changes to help bolster my work on v2.0.
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Pet/Vitality Hybrid Cabalist: The Night Kinghttp://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=574127

Understanding Pet Damage: http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=499409
Necromancer Abilities for Pet Builds: http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=574133
Pet Devotions for AoM: http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=574136
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  #15  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:25 PM
thepowerofmediocrity thepowerofmediocrity is offline
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Originally Posted by DaShiv View Post
http://www.grimtools.com/calc/1NX7eBBZ

It's pretty easy to pick them all up if you simply drop Raven. The trick with AoM devo paths is to focus on the big picture and not get too greedy with trying to collect every single useful T1/T2. For example, the Night King v1.0 reached its extreme DPS even without Raven and Panther for the extra OA/flat/crit, because it had a big picture plan to grab the biggest DPS boosts as efficiently as possible, then simply do what it can to fill in the rest.
Ahh, it was removing Raven I was missing. I wasn't expecting that. With regards to your Night King, it helps a lot that the Necro's Master of Death is so good at providing the necessary pet OA. The flat OA from Aura of Conviction is slightly less than the %OA bonuses from Master of Death, so the total necessary Grimtools sheet pet OA should roughly be around 45% or so to account for the flat OA bonus. I'll mess around with the spreadsheets and determine an appropriate OA that will get me what I need (due to the Rune of Hagarrad's second delay in arming, I'd like to have enough OA to maximize damage output before the DA shred from the rune takes place).

Quote:
You can substitute Murmur in place of Solael above for a bit less DPS and 96 more effective DA, but I'm also a strong advocate for "the best defense is a good offense" when it comes to pet builds. Also, by increasing Twin Fangs damage via RR, Manticore will noticeably boost your survivability. As a comparison, the Night King v1.0 had 900% vit damage, 3.2k effective player OA, and -96 vit RR (-84 post-nerf) to power Twin Fangs. Best defense = offense, etc.
You're a lot better at the "best defense = offense" game than I am. Note that I play on a Steam controller because it immensely protects my hands from the mouse moving and clicking I would otherwise have to do; I probably would not have bought this game if it weren't for controller support. I'd be the first to concede that if we played the exact same build, you'd be miles better at body-blocking, avoiding swarming, and maximizing your pets' potential than I would. There's a reason I deliberately avoided running a Cabalist and instead made a 3500 DA Conjurer.

Quote:
If it were me, I'd never try to sort this out in my head - it's a nightmare trying to visualize and weigh all the tradeoffs involved when it comes to pet builds. I typically do tons of A/B build testing -- first by spreadsheet to dramatically sort down the candidate list, then via direct playtesting (PV, MQ, and finally Gladiator only if the build handled the previous very well).

It's a lot like how obtaining "good rolls" for items isn't about getting very lucky, but simply about farming/keeping all the duplicates and picking the best ones (and blowing up the rest). Likewise, I went through 50+ Grimtool builds before finalizing v1.0 of the Night King, and I'm well over a couple dozen candidates (with very different strategies) for v2.0 thus far. Good spreadsheet use will hugely cut down on the number of build candidates that require actual playtesting.
Agreed. My testing route is Fabius + Cronley (due to close proximity and a good test to see how my build faces ground damage), then Mad Queen, then Iron Maiden, then Sentinel, and if all those tests pass with flying colors, I take it to PV (places that require Skeleton Keys I save for last) and Gazer Man fight.

The way I see it, there are three candidates- my original build of Dying God + Mogdrogen, your devotion set-up for maximum RR, then Dying God + Aeons using either Bysmiel or Manticore. I'll report the spreadsheet results once I run the numbers, then test your maximum RR build and see if I'm impacted by the loss of defense (knowing my playstyle, the loss of defense would be significant, but maybe I'm just too freaked out by the prospect of sudden OHKO Notched Bone crits).

Quote:
You can wait and see, but that's also a pretty good way of being let down by Crate. For all the whinging by melee builders about nerfs, pet builds have consistently been shown FAR more nerfs and FAR fewer new toys than all other build types. For example, how many new conversions were introduced in AoM -- dozens at least? over a hundred? -- and how many those were for pets? How many top-tier competitive builds in AoM are powered by new/improved Mythical legendary sets (too many awesome builds/sets to count), and how many top-tier competitive pet builds are? (Exactly none.)

Maybe this time will truly be different, but I'll believe it when I see it. As for myself, I'm certainly not relying on any patch changes to help bolster my work on v2.0.
It's more like, "Starting with the Christmas holiday, I have a good number of personal life commitments that will take up a large chunk of my time, and by the time I will have these commitments settled and I can give myself the time to really test these things out, Crate will probably already have the update out by then." It's less wishing Crate will listen to our suggestions and more of a logistical reality stemming from the amount and type of real-life work I will be handling for the next couple of months. Speaking of which, how did your business trip to Asia go? You mentioned it in your Night King thread and I find it cool to have a job that allows people to travel that far to completely different cultures.
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  #16  
Old 12-09-2017, 06:01 PM
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Chthon Chthon is offline
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You seem to be really into making creative masterpieces. Between this and your Pet Retaliation build I am speechless

Great job coming up with this

OT
Hopefully your long post gets us a Pet DK set . I could use one for mine
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  #17  
Old 12-09-2017, 11:42 PM
thepowerofmediocrity thepowerofmediocrity is offline
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Thank you for the kind words, Chthon! I really appreciate the compliment.

Okay, so I put everything into Grim spreadsheets (the only way to play). I have two spreadsheets comparing my original set-up with Howl of Mogdrogen vs DaShiv's RR devotion set-up, assuming in both cases 5 Swarmlings are on the field. Thanks to Howl of Mogdrogen's extra PTH and total speed, my original devotion set-up has roughly a 2-3% DPS advantage over the RR constellations, even when you take the extra pet from Bysmiel into account. However, since Mogdrogen only has roughly 70% uptime (66% + CDR devotion reduction), DaShiv's set-up has the overall edge.

What I did was use the damage spreadsheet to get the maximum damage before crits (all buffs applied, average damage values used when pets have a damage range), multiply that by the damage multipliers based off PTH and crit damage (DaShiv's build has a slight advantage) taken from the OA/DA spreadsheet, and multiplied that total by attack speed multiplier (so for 100% attack speed, I multiplied the total damage by 2).

DaShiv's build also has 1,500 health (I used the last two points to get Vulture's 15% Bleeding Resistance so both builds have roughly the same resistance profile) more and only roughly 35 DA less than my build. It likely won't make much of a difference in Crucible, seeing my biggest issue is keeping myself from getting swarmed, but it is definitely worth looking further into and testing.

Last edited by thepowerofmediocrity; 12-09-2017 at 11:51 PM. Reason: Decided not to be a jerk and thank the guy complimenting me. :P
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:51 AM
TitanQuester TitanQuester is offline
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It's probably a silly question but...

How does flat damage work for pets?

Let's say, a skill gives 50 flat damage. If I have +100% for this damage, the number goes up to 100 (in the skill description) and I would make 100 additional damage when I hit something with my weapon (ignoring armor and resistances here).

If my pets have +200% (for this damage type) how much damage do they do then:

a: 50 + (200% * 50) = 150
b: 100 + (200% * 100) = 300
c: something else?

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  #19  
Old 12-10-2017, 12:25 PM
thepowerofmediocrity thepowerofmediocrity is offline
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Originally Posted by TitanQuester View Post
It's probably a silly question but...

How does flat damage work for pets?

Let's say, a skill gives 50 flat damage. If I have +100% for this damage, the number goes up to 100 (in the skill description) and I would make 100 additional damage when I hit something with my weapon (ignoring armor and resistances here).

If my pets have +200% (for this damage type) how much damage do they do then:

a: 50 + (200% * 50) = 150
b: 100 + (200% * 100) = 300
c: something else?

No worries, all questions are welcome. DaShiv's Dracarris Incarnate and Night King pet builds go into much further detail, including spreadsheets that explain everything for you, but here's the quick explanation:
  1. Check Grimtools for the base damage your pet has. That is considered their weapon damage. As a general note, any pet that attacks with projectiles - the Raven is the most obvious example- does not benefit from weapon damage, but all other pets are fair game.
  2. I will use the Primal Instinct Swarmling's 200 Fire Damage as an example. Using a skill that grants 50 Fire damage will get added to that 200 base damage, resulting in a total weapon damage of 250 Fire Damage. If the Swarmlings have access to a skill that grants % Weapon Damage (they would not, but if you bind a Devotion to your Hellhound, that would be an example), that skill would do 250 * % Weapon Damage. For just about all cases, though, you are dealing with a basic weapon attack, so it's simply base damage + bonus flat damage for the same type.
  3. That total damage is multiplied by the % damage bonuses. Your Grimtools spreadsheet will have the % to all damage displayed, but many equipment and skills grant bonuses to specific damage types which are not displayed. You will have to add these numbers yourself to get the real % Damage for that specific type.
  4. That means for your example, your total damage would be (Base damage + 50 bonus flat damage) * 200%. Using the Swarmlings as an example again, that damage would be (200 + 50) * 200% = 750 fire damage. You would then repeat that process for all other damage types. DaShiv's spreadsheets explain it much better than my clunky example; I would thoroughly read one of his builds, download the spreadsheet, and follow his explanations until you get it.

Hope that helps.
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2017, 01:55 PM
TitanQuester TitanQuester is offline
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Thanks a lot for your helpful answer.

As I use a necro (and try to max the skeletton's flat damage), I guess the added flat damage does then also NOT apply to the archers and mages, right? (because they use projectiles)
That's a bit disappointing...
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