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Old 09-04-2015, 08:28 AM
majortwitch majortwitch is offline
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Default Your game kind of sucks. (reasons.)

So let at least start off with saying that I have 45+ hours in grim dawn. Have played Diablo 2 and 3, Torch Light 2, Path of Exile, and few other ARPGs. It is a decently fun game, but the more I play it, the less I want to play. This is not about contain, it about the core game mechanics.
In a topic another medierra said: "It especially appealed to me because the approach epitomized one of the most important ideals of good design: simplicity and unobtrusiveness." I am extremely hard pressed to see how they adhered to "good design." Not much about this game says that. How many different damage types are there and their related resists? How many different effects can roll on a given piece of gear? Armor has paragraphs long description of how it works that only found on the site. + damage boosts weapon damage, but % damage boosts spells and weapon damage. And how are crafting components unobtrusive? Damage conversions? I like to think that simplicity can have depth. Maybe I just stupid but I had to go read up on forums and wikis to understand this game. That doesn't seem that simple.

Gearing is just painful, times vs reward is so incredibility low. I feel that path of exile has this issue too, but at least their gear system is unique. As a semi casual player, I do not have the time or luck or will to make RNG love me. Depending on your build you could play hundreds of hours without ever seeing an upgrade. That is terms of end game or build optimizing. Bring character progression to rapid painful grinding halt, and for me a lack of interest in the game. The game's over randomization is what kills the game for me the most. Maybe some people like that...

Let us look at components. They are massive pain to micro manage. I think they should have they their own bag and have a walk over auto pick up, and a search function. To me that they are like iron bits even if you don't really it you still pick it up. Having to click them to pick up is a needless time sink. Guess it could be interest to poll to see how many people don't always pick components. Being able to sort augments, like filtering ones that have a cunning increase would be helpful.
Completion bonus, why? So with 400 minutes of play on a level 46 guy I got 16 emeralds. One of which has spirit +6. I don't know quite the possible results of completion bonuses, I have two with cunning bonus, one that is +3 another with +7. With my luck that could be 40, or more, hours before I got a single prefect emerald seems fun and reasonable.
Suggestion: Arcane Alchemist, or some such thing. You can craft at the npc using components, and you can control the completion bonus out come. As in selecting bonus type and strength. You will need of more the base component and money the closer you want the bonus to max. Example: 4 components and 1000 iron will get you a +2 cunning completion bonus. While 9 components and 50k iron will get a +10 cunning. Players can still combine on the fly if they wish, albeit with random results.

You have be RNGesus to get the good gear if your build is unique and doesn't align with epics or set items that exist. Like being a heavy armor caster. Which sucks. Last patch, build 26?, they reduced the RNGesus factor on weapons which was great. I think that should really be applied to all items. The current loot system reminds me greatly of Diablo 3's loot system at launch. Which after around 2 years they realized how terrible it was. I am not saying you should copy it, but you could at least learn from their changes. For most part everything have done to the loot system has been to be make the game more in enjoyable. Now if your game is only targeted at the hardcore people that like to spend 200+ hours to get single piece of gear, you can ignore this. With some straight forward changes I think the loot system could be vastly improved.

Now have suggestions for the loot system and thoughts about the silliness that physique, cunning, and spirit is (and so much more...). But many developers have a habit of ignoring negative feedback so depending on interest they could be posted.
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:52 AM
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Was this 45 hours mainly in b27?
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Old 09-04-2015, 12:42 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to list your concerns.

It sounds like several of your complaints were addressed with the recent B27 update, which reduced the frequency of junk loot dramatically. This is something that will see further refinement as we adjust the loot tables for caster weapons in the future.

In the end, Grim Dawn is a game played by a wide spectrum of players, and we try to offer gearing options for everyone; whether that is guaranteed loot through the faction system, or extremely rare and difficult to craft Relics (and Legendaries in the future). Our gearing is a spectrum. That said, there was room for improvement, and we took steps to correct it with B27. As another example, we significantly reduced the rate of duplicate Uniques in the same session.

As for Components, that was actually put to a community vote and players preferred to keep the random completion bonuses. In the end, those are bonuses though, so getting the perfect Component is in no way required to progress through the game, though I can understand the frustration of not seeing the bonus you'd rather have after a long time.

I myself have awful RNG luck, and I know exactly how that feels.


Feel free to share your views on our attribute and loot system. We read and consider all constructive feedback, whether it slams our game as junk or lifts it up to the high heavens (and everything in-between).
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Old 09-04-2015, 03:27 PM
majortwitch majortwitch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiaco View Post
Was this 45 hours mainly in b27?
No, only maybe around 8 or so hours in b27. Keep trying the game from time to time, that level 46 guy I mention was started in b27.

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Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
In the end, Grim Dawn is a game played by a wide spectrum of players, and we try to offer gearing options for everyone; whether that is guaranteed loot through the faction system, or extremely rare and difficult to craft Relics (and Legendaries in the future). Our gearing is a spectrum. That said, there was room for improvement, and we took steps to correct it with B27. As another example, we significantly reduced the rate of duplicate Uniques in the same session.
Well for most part on my last build there was only two pieces of faction gear that fit my build requirements was very disappointing. Not really worried about that though, more so about the sorry state of random loot.

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Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
As for Components, that was actually put to a community vote and players preferred to keep the random completion bonuses. In the end, those are bonuses though, so getting the perfect Component is in no way required to progress through the game, though I can understand the frustration of not seeing the bonus you'd rather have after a long time.
That had only around 180 people, which seems like small sample of your player base. And clearly there was people with discontent with the system. 110 to 70 is not a overwhelming vote. That seems like that should be a red flag... The poll did not explore options or leave option for change. Start with a general poll ask: "Are you completely satisfied with the current state of the component system" yes or no. If you don't have a majority yes I would suggest question and have further polls to narrow core issues.
A super simple change that would make me far happier with the system without much change? Do not let the random completion bonus be random. As in a random bonus is +8 cunning not 3 to 8 cunning. That cuts down on the RNG without losing the beauty of the randomness that people enjoy.

I don't completely base this just what I think, its heavily influenced by trends of games that I have play.

Your players are wealth of information I would try to use that more. I would guess you have vastly more players than forum users. I think that one most best things you could do for the game is add a in game poll to the main menu. Have simple question and the answer option. Run one question a week or something. Do not overwhelm people just get a moment of their time.

Before I attempt to explain loot changes that most likely with be ignored, what is your defense of the current system? Or the design principles behind it? I have no idea how you justify it, useless you enjoy destroying your soul thinking that a piece of gear you want will drop. If so well done.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majortwitch View Post
Gearing is just painful, times vs reward is so incredibility low. I feel that path of exile has this issue too, but at least their gear system is unique. As a semi casual player, I do not have the time or luck or will to make RNG love me. Depending on your build you could play hundreds of hours without ever seeing an upgrade. That is terms of end game or build optimizing. Bring character progression to rapid painful grinding halt, and for me a lack of interest in the game. The game's over randomization is what kills the game for me the most. Maybe some people like that... [...]

You have be RNGesus to get the good gear if your build is unique and doesn't align with epics or set items that exist. Like being a heavy armor caster. Which sucks. [...]

Now have suggestions for the loot system and thoughts about the silliness that physique, cunning, and spirit is (and so much more...). But many developers have a habit of ignoring negative feedback so depending on interest they could be posted.
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Originally Posted by majortwitch View Post
Before I attempt to explain loot changes that most likely with be ignored, what is your defense of the current system? Or the design principles behind it? I have no idea how you justify it, useless you enjoy destroying your soul thinking that a piece of gear you want will drop. If so well done.
Before you start to post your suggestions, you might want to share with us in which way the loot system has failed you. Right now I do not know what to defend.

Did you actually play a heavy armor caster? What was the issue? Missing energy regeneration on (heavy) armor? Too low armor of caster gear? There are components like Ectoplasm and Scaled Hide to compensate. Or did you feel you had to invest too much in Physique, and you did not get sufficient bonus damage from Spirit?

Then again this seems to be like an exotic build to me and should be arguably more difficult to equip. Or do you mean by heavy armor caster a melee fighter with implements, but who does not use spells (e.g. Panetti's Replicating Missile) as primary attack?

Also do you play on normal or veteran mode, do you trade items between your chars, do you ignore magical items once you have found rare and epic items for a slot?
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:52 PM
majortwitch majortwitch is offline
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Originally Posted by eisprinzessin View Post
Did you actually play a heavy armor caster? What was the issue? Missing energy regeneration on (heavy) armor? Too low armor of caster gear? There are components like Ectoplasm and Scaled Hide to compensate. Or did you feel you had to invest too much in Physique, and you did not get sufficient bonus damage from Spirit?
Yes, it is a arcanist shaman. I use nothing but shaman attack spells (not weapon skills). Dumped all the points in physique. This was not so much about if the build was effective it was the sadness that could not get the gear to play the unique character I had. What I wanted was heavy armor with spirit, physique, and energy regeneration on it. I was lucky if found two of those traits on piece. Most of the time I had to settle for one of them, if even that. Complete gave up on energy regeneration in the later in the game and endlessly drink spirit potions. None of the faction vendors had heavy armor that matched that style either. You have a beauty flexible create a class style that is getting murdered by a poor gear system.
Others may feel this way as well. When I go online a lot people have an item level that trails 5 to 15 levels behind their charter. That is tells that something might be a bit off.
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Originally Posted by eisprinzessin View Post
Then again this seems to be like an exotic build to me and should be arguably more difficult to equip. Or do you mean by heavy armor caster a melee fighter with implements, but who does not use spells (e.g. Panetti's Replicating Missile) as primary attack?
So you are saying for wanting to play a certain style the game should punish you, because that not your designed vision of how it should be played? Super flexible class system! But stick to the generic otherwise you will hate your life. An "exotic" build (which is a weird concept for an open class system) doesn't mean better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eisprinzessin View Post
Also do you play on normal or veteran mode, do you trade items between your chars, do you ignore magical items once you have found rare and epic items for a slot?
Veteran mode, I will trade gear between charters, and I look at all gear above white.
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Old 09-05-2015, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by majortwitch View Post
Yes, it is a arcanist shaman. I use nothing but shaman attack spells (not weapon skills). Dumped all the points in physique. This was not so much about if the build was effective it was the sadness that could not get the gear to play the unique character I had. What I wanted was heavy armor with spirit, physique, and energy regeneration on it. I was lucky if found two of those traits on piece. Most of the time I had to settle for one of them, if even that. Complete gave up on energy regeneration in the later in the game and endlessly drink spirit potions. None of the faction vendors had heavy armor that matched that style either. You have a beauty flexible create a class style that is getting murdered by a poor gear system.
Heavy armor with spirit, physique and energy regen is hard to find because it isn't really meant to exist. The flexibility of the game systems are not meant to be infinite and allow people to build anything they want without limitation otherwise there would be no way to balance the potential builds. With no limitations, it would diminish theory-crafting, trying to balance strengths and trade-offs in creating powerful and interesting builds, because you could just take the best of everything.

Being a spellcaster and wearing heavy armor are one of the configurations that our systems are meant to limit. You want to talk about generic characters - if every build could just as effectively use heavy armor with no trade-offs, why would anyone use any other armor? You'd end up with all builds - spellcasters, summoners, high dps melee, tank melee, all running around in heavy armor.

In many other ARPGs, you'd have 0 flexibility in terms of armor. If you're class X, then you use Y armor type and that's just the rule (e.g. I'm a wizard, so I can only wear "cloth" armor type). In Grim Dawn, you have at least the flexibility that you can push things more in one direction or another. So maybe you can have a Shaman caster with some heavier armor pieces, as long as you balance that out with a couple caster pieces and more components that boost energy regen. Really though, that flexibility is more intended to support hybrid characters. If you're a pure caster with high energy demands, then chances are you're using higher damage skills / have more AoE dmg and the cost of that is that you can't also have the best defenses.

Quote:
Others may feel this way as well. When I go online a lot people have an item level that trails 5 to 15 levels behind their charter. That is tells that something might be a bit off.
This may occur for two reasons. Gear doesn't smoothly scale up, so that you get a new class of gear with a small increment in stats every level or two, you gain access to new tiers of gear at bigger level gaps, which come with bigger jumps in stats. This is intended to create more of a feeling of deprivation and then greater reward. We had a smoother, more incremental advancement of gear in Titan Quest and it did not feel quite as satisfying because you never got to the point where you felt behind the curve and like you really needed an upgrade. So, when you got an upgrade, it was just like "whatever, increases my armor by 2 points, who cares" and progress felt less significant.

The other reason people often have under-leveled gear is because they incorrectly assess the important of magical bonuses vs. base stats. For example, you'll often see people clinging onto a piece of armor that gives them +3dmg but is 30 armor lower than the white / yellow stuff they could buy off a vendor or dropping from enemies. In that case, the DPS gain is going to be insignificant compared to the defensive loss from being behind on armor but, you know, people love their damage. Similarly, you often see people cling to unique epic items far longer than they should because they haven't found another epic or rare pierce and they don't want to trade it out for a white piece, even though an appropriately leveled white piece of armor might significantly boost their survivability.

Quote:
So you are saying for wanting to play a certain style the game should punish you, because that not your designed vision of how it should be played? Super flexible class system! But stick to the generic otherwise you will hate your life. An "exotic" build (which is a weird concept for an open class system) doesn't mean better.
The "playstyle" it sounds like you want to create is "best offense + best defense." I'm sorry you can't do anything you want in the game but yeah, that's not our vision. We do want to create some semblance of balance with a system that provides the ability to make various trade-offs for offensive and defensive power and utility. I think it's kind of a cop out to throw out the whole "designers want to force me to play according to their vision" complaint because you're coming up against soft balancing restrictions in trying to create something that seems obviously broken. I mean, the next step is to complain that you want to build the biggest spammable AoE, wear the best armor and also have damage equal to the highest single-target cooldown skill.

I think our skill and equipment system supports tons of possible build combinations and people have made lots of exotic hybrid characters. Just look at the range of things in the build compendium on the forum. The one thing you typically can't do is pair the best offense with the best defense. I mean, if you can have a ranged AoE caster wearing heavy armor, what advantage does a single or limited target melee build have?

So, we've built a system that is somewhat open but where choices have certain costs that can make some combinations mutually exclusive. You can do everything you want within that system but there is a lot you can do. If we wanted to totally ensure that you played according to our "vision of how you should play" it would be much easier to just say "if you're a shaman, you can only be a caster or you can only play melee and you can only wear cloth armor or even just shaman armor".
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:56 PM
majortwitch majortwitch is offline
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Very enlightening.
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
Heavy armor with spirit, physique and energy regen is hard to find because it isn't really meant to exist. The flexibility of the game systems are not meant to be infinite and allow people to build anything they want without limitation otherwise there would be no way to balance the potential builds. With no limitations, it would diminish theory-crafting, trying to balance strengths and trade-offs in creating powerful and interesting builds, because you could just take the best of everything.
Well that explains a lot, namely why gear I wanted didn't exist. I am failing to see logic of no limits diminishes theory-crafting. I love theory-crafting. Anyhow, please do elaborate.
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
Being a spellcaster and wearing heavy armor are one of the configurations that our systems are meant to limit. You want to talk about generic characters - if every build could just as effectively use heavy armor with no trade-offs, why would anyone use any other armor? You'd end up with all builds - spellcasters, summoners, high dps melee, tank melee, all running around in heavy armor.
There is a trade-off. Not sure why you think there is no trade off. In terms of my build I had to dump all my stats in physique. Which resulted in extremely low cunning and a low spirit. My damage is low and I miss often and never critically hit. All of which I find fine. The build was created to deal with boss spawned adds. You have no aggro control mechanics. I had issues with AoE casters got swarmed by adds. So had designed to build to deal with large amounts of crappy enemies. And you need the heavy armor to survive all the adds. I like to hangout with high single target dps people. Boss fights can be a bit lengthy solo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
In many other ARPGs, you'd have 0 flexibility in terms of armor. If you're class X, then you use Y armor type and that's just the rule (e.g. I'm a wizard, so I can only wear "cloth" armor type). In Grim Dawn, you have at least the flexibility that you can push things more in one direction or another. So maybe you can have a Shaman caster with some heavier armor pieces, as long as you balance that out with a couple caster pieces and more components that boost energy regen. Really though, that flexibility is more intended to support hybrid characters. If you're a pure caster with high energy demands, then chances are you're using higher damage skills / have more AoE dmg and the cost of that is that you can't also have the best defenses.
Not the case in either torchlight 2 or Diablo 3, everyone can where the same stuff. I personal enjoy both those games. And spirit potions seem to make energy generation irrelevant on quasi casters. Balance doesn't seem to out wack in those games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
This may occur for two reasons. Gear doesn't smoothly scale up, so that you get a new class of gear with a small increment in stats every level or two, you gain access to new tiers of gear at bigger level gaps, which come with bigger jumps in stats. This is intended to create more of a feeling of deprivation and then greater reward. We had a smoother, more incremental advancement of gear in Titan Quest and it did not feel quite as satisfying because you never got to the point where you felt behind the curve and like you really needed an upgrade. So, when you got an upgrade, it was just like "whatever, increases my armor by 2 points, who cares" and progress felt less significant.
The other reason people often have under-leveled gear is because they incorrectly assess the important of magical bonuses vs. base stats. For example, you'll often see people clinging onto a piece of armor that gives them +3dmg but is 30 armor lower than the white / yellow stuff they could buy off a vendor or dropping from enemies. In that case, the DPS gain is going to be insignificant compared to the defensive loss from being behind on armor but, you know, people love their damage. Similarly, you often see people cling to unique epic items far longer than they should because they haven't found another epic or rare pierce and they don't want to trade it out for a white piece, even though an appropriately leveled white piece of armor might significantly boost their survivability.
So it is by intention design. I guess well done - goal achieved. I don't personally agree and kind of hate the style of progress, but that is me. So was this decision cause by community feedback or just design's team vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
The "playstyle" it sounds like you want to create is "best offense + best defense." I'm sorry you can't do anything you want in the game but yeah, that's not our vision. We do want to create some semblance of balance with a system that provides the ability to make various trade-offs for offensive and defensive power and utility. I think it's kind of a cop out to throw out the whole "designers want to force me to play according to their vision" complaint because you're coming up against soft balancing restrictions in trying to create something that seems obviously broken. I mean, the next step is to complain that you want to build the biggest spammable AoE, wear the best armor and also have damage equal to the highest single-target cooldown skill.
I think our skill and equipment system supports tons of possible build combinations and people have made lots of exotic hybrid characters. Just look at the range of things in the build compendium on the forum. The one thing you typically can't do is pair the best offense with the best defense. I mean, if you can have a ranged AoE caster wearing heavy armor, what advantage does a single or limited target melee build have?
So, we've built a system that is somewhat open but where choices have certain costs that can make some combinations mutually exclusive. You can do everything you want within that system but there is a lot you can do. If we wanted to totally ensure that you played according to our "vision of how you should play" it would be much easier to just say "if you're a shaman, you can only be a caster or you can only play melee and you can only wear cloth armor or even just shaman armor".
Not looking the best offense + best defense just would have like some gear that actually helped the build. I was under the impression that any build combo was practical. However, by design a player's creativity is limited by undermining gear system. Sadness. Kind of feel that is poor mechanics leading to less than ideal balancing.
  #9  
Old 09-06-2015, 12:45 AM
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Heavy armor with spirit, physique and energy regen is hard to find because it isn't really meant to exist.
It's not like it does not exist at all. There are various affixes (I'm listing only magical ones and leaving out a few hybrids here.), which provide what you want:
  • Prefixes: Mighty, Mystic, Energizing (for lack of a better one)
  • Suffixes: of Fortitude, of Psyche, of the Boar, of the Eagle, of the Wolverine, of the Owl, of the Tortoise, of Meditation, of the Sea
And with this recent change it has become more likely to get something according to your level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
Build 27 [...] v0.3.5.5 (b27) [...]
Magic Affix loot tables have been updated so that lower level affixes stop dropping sooner, increasing the probability of getting appropriate-level bonuses dramatically.
Did you skill Modrogen's Pact and its modifier Oak Skin? The former provides a decent base energy regeneration and the latter bonus armor. With the bonus armor you should be able to equip items, if your sought after stats appeared on non-heavy armor.
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2015, 08:26 PM
majortwitch majortwitch is offline
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Originally Posted by eisprinzessin View Post
Did you skill Modrogen's Pact and its modifier Oak Skin? The former provides a decent base energy regeneration and the latter bonus armor. With the bonus armor you should be able to equip items, if your sought after stats appeared on non-heavy armor.
The crux of the issue isn't as simple as I needed mana regeneration or more armor that would be provided by the skill Modrogen's Pact. It was that gear didn't appear to drop that synergized with my build. Heavy armor dropped with that mostly only help melee and or weapon users. Which isn't helped by the fact that gear drops are designed to suck until you get something good. The core of the issue may just be overly random loot.

To elaborate on the whole not so linear gear progress and desperate feeling for gear. Having bad gear and rarely seeing a piece of decent gear does not motivate me to play more. At least I don't play these game to run around as crappy guy.
In D3 you have around 14 difficultly modes. Higher modes have more damage, exp, health, gold, and loot. The world auto scales to your level. So you can go a farm when ever and where ever. Which allow players to enjoy their favorite zones without the "it's too low level" issue. (You could say that level locked zones are good. Allows a player to over level to progress through the zone if they are struggling. Or they could have decent gear in the first place, or perhaps lower the difficultly.) You can fairly easily get geared out in rare items which are good for your build. Get full epics takes a lot longer, but you are continually progressing. After epics there is set epics, getting those can be a long process. There is still drive for even better gear, to see just how far you can push the difficult. Try a higher difficult knowing that loot is better there and getting smashed by a white mob will makes you feel desperate for better gear. Their gear progression is smooth. Grim dawn's gear feels very random and jarring.

Expansion upon my "Kind of feel that is poor mechanics leading to less than ideal balancing." You don't want casters to be wearing heavy armor. And you don't seem to think the insane physique requirements is enough of penalty. There are other options like penalties, movement speed, cast speed, dodge, spell failure change, increased energy costs, reduced spell damage. Or don't have them as penalties of heavy armor but innate beneficial properties that lighter armors always have. Like piece of caster armor might just have -5% energy costs.
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