#1  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:31 AM
LokiGoC's Avatar
LokiGoC LokiGoC is offline
Initiate
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 20
Default For the love of Tanks!

Hi all, new to the forums but have 1500+ hours in game and most of it playing Tanks!

This new expac is gonna bring in what looks like an amazing tank class and amazing synergies with Retaliation damage and shields in that class but I'm really hoping there will be something to help fix the existing tanks that are out there.

For example, my main tank is a Commando with Retaliation damage as his primary focus. At the moment he can face tank pretty much everything and doesn't even have his full sets yet (missing Markovian shoulders still, just had the worst RNG there lol) but when it comes to actually clearing stuff, he struggles. Especially against spell casters, even with Targo's Shield Wall skill up for the massive damage reflect, it's just too slow.

Now before anyone comments "get damages" or what-not, I love building full tank, my primary style of play is being almost un-killable first and foremost, it's what I enjoy. I could lose the ret damage stuff for damage dealing stuff but that's already changing the build to something I didn't want it to be. I want to be a full tank and have things kill themselves on me, I love thorns style builds in any game, but at the moment it just doesn't work.

I'm hoping the devs are considering giving Soldiers a way to outwardly deal the ret. damage on attack without having to change to an Oathkeeper hybrid, so that my old characters can be made viable as the ret. builds they are (I'm still planning to make a Warlord ret. build the minute the expac is out though haha).

The biggest problem with the build is that it has no real way of dealing AoE damage or dealing with hoards of enemies at once. Having ret. damage be an AoE proc when hit could work or just something that can give ret. tanks a bit of range. Giving Cadence a transmuter that changes it's damage to apply retaliation damage instead would be another way to help that. I don't know if these would be viable, I'm just throwing out ideas.

The next most major issue it has is maintaining threat. Having Warcry change to directly taunting enemies instead of just generating extra threat was great, but it still seems to only generate threat, and not enough at that. Now for most generic content it's fine, but when running him in a Crucible 150-170 party he doesn't have a hope in the Void of holding threat at the moment over the damage that builds at that level can throw out. Even using the threat generation on Markovian's Strategem, Markovian's Helm and the Hammerfall Girdle procs. on top of Warcry I can't keep threat off my DPS friends.

This may be largely due to the lack of outward DPS that I do currently due to fully spec-ing for ret. damage and it being passive damage reliant on getting hit, but that doesn't really help a full tank that isn't meant to be doing huge amounts of damage usually. Personally I'd love to be able to maintain threat without having to sacrifice my tankiness for damage to maintain that threat. I'm happy to do stuff all damage as long as I can survive and keep enemies attention on me. I love being able to protect my friends full DPS builds and at the moment I cannot do that.

Now don't get me wrong, tanks are amazing in GD, I haven't played another ARPG that does tanks as well as these guys have and it brings me back to the Dungeon Crawlers of old that I could play full tanks in, but they are not beyond being improved. My current build uses most of the ret. Devotions and survival skills, full Markovian's and Strategem with Pummeler, Thornhide leggings, Golemborn Greaves, Hammerfall Girdle, Menhir's Bastion Relic and Colossal Grasp and maxed out Warcry, but as he stands he can't quite maintain threat and can't really be run solo due to all of his damage being ret. damage. I'm pretty sure I haven't missed something that makes ret. better so I'm very much hoping they are looking to fix this for Soldiers and would love anyone's input on this!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-12-2019, 07:32 AM
LokiGoC's Avatar
LokiGoC LokiGoC is offline
Initiate
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 20
Default

My current build here: www.grimtools.com/calc/1NXp3ggN

Some of the skills have changed like Menhir's Will because I just don't need it but most are the same. Criticism welcome but constructive please, don't be a douche about it lol.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-12-2019, 08:58 AM
USER_NAME_01's Avatar
USER_NAME_01 USER_NAME_01 is offline
Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,514
Default

You can still build a solid tank and deal 40k DPS. Your build seems way less tanky than my Witch Blade or Tactician and deals way less damage. It's even hard to understand if you're getting retaliation as damage or just damage as damage. You could do far better with your commando, having more OA and more RR. Right now, you maybe have some damage (approx. 20k DPS, looking at this build), but it drops down to even 5k DPS, due to the lack of OA. Surviving is a tank's job, but if you're building a tank right this one you've built, you either need to go to multiplayer and have something that deals damage in your party, or just re-build it and get some damage for your solo run.

The more you survive, the better, the less damage you deal, the worse. Some enemies build damage over-time, like Kuba, Grava, even small bosses like the aether motherfucker that has the shard you have to destroy, where Fabius also spawns, after killing that particular boss you can go to Twin Falls. You might reduce the damage by ~90%, but the 10 damage (after reduction) reapplied multiple times, over and over again, can build up up to 1k damage in some cases. I had a situation where my most tanky tank could not handle a guy with a spammable skill, even though my HP bar wasn't moving in the beginning, then I was losing like 2k per second.


Building a tank in GD, single player, is not as easy. You might be successful on building defense, but if you can't kill anything - it's useless and such build should be either put into trash or re-built. While building a tank, you should have a priority, but not set it as main thing. For example, if you build an Infiltrator, you focus on damage, it's your main goal, you don't think about getting RR because you know you need it and you'll pick it anyway. This is also how building a tank works, you don't focus on RR or damage, but you do focus on defenses, but, of course, you know you need damage and RR in order to make your tank effective and successful.
__________________
I don't play Crucible.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:27 AM
malawiglenn's Avatar
malawiglenn malawiglenn is online now
Lord Advocate
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 4,104
Default

Overcapping War Cry is kinda pointless, you get +1% dmg red and 0.6 meter radius.

And so is Squat tactics, you get +1% more attack speed.

Get more Fightning spirit instead?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir spanksalot View Post
OOOOH HO HO. YOU DISGUSTING GDSTASHING RAT.
This is gonna be a new addition to my signature
YouTube: malawiglenn
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:52 AM
Superfluff's Avatar
Superfluff Superfluff is offline
Praetorian
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 6,688
Default

tank retal is one of my fav builds and FG wil allow you do build hybrids. Keep in mind that there is a new mechanic comeing that adds %retal to some skills. FRom devotions to skills that you actively use. This will change the way you play/plan a retal build
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evok View Post
I find it personally insulting to die to shit falling on my head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantai
I don't have much sympathy
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:00 PM
LokiGoC's Avatar
LokiGoC LokiGoC is offline
Initiate
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 20
Default

@USER_NAME_01 - The main point of my post is stating that someone building fully for ret damage and pure tank can't also build for damage, with all buffs active I'm hitting 200k ret procs, but only if things are actively hitting me and all buffs are active at the same time. That build can tank literally everything bar Avatar of Mogdrogen, without having any worries. But solo it cannot deal enough damage to certain enemies to actually make it viable. But again if I rebuild it for damage it is moving away from being the tank I want it to be. It would be nice if they would make some changes to help the full tank players in the game in this way, but I may have to wait until the expac to find out what they have planned then. I don't think it's too much to ask to have a retal full tank that can actually manage solo is it? I'm not expecting it to be as good as DPS builds, but could they at least give us a way to manage it reasonably?

When playing in a party my tankiness is fine but I cannot hold threat from my companions who are actively dealing tonnes of damage, due to threat generation not being high enough of said skills mentioned to compete against proper DPS builds. It very much seems that the best way to hold threat is to do damage yourself and that doesn't really have synergy with what a full tank is trying to achieve. You are right that solo this build cannot do it as it is, but he is good enough for party play. And no enemy has been able to kill me ever, solo or in party play, (minus Mog) but it takes me actively a good few minutes to kill things, but someone like Valaxteria takes almost 30 minutes (decided to try once, never again) to kill because she cannot proc retaliation damage and does not cast very high damage spells, or cast spells very often, so even the 150% reflect from Shield Wall proc doesn't do much to her.

At the moment I am considering binning the build or forgetting about ret damage entirely as what I'm trying to do is just not working in the current state of the game. Ret doesn't affect spell casters and without more threat generation it can't really protect my friends in multiplayer. It's un-killable, but useless other than that. There really should be something that can keep more threat on a tank because if I don't have threat then things aren't hitting me, meaning ret damage is useless in multiplayer. Warcry should be a guaranteed taunt, regardless. And until there is a way to deal said ret damage to things as well, like spell casters because they don't proc it themselves, then ret cannot work as well as any other build in my eyes. I'm aware this all could change drastically come the expac though but thought I'd at least post to draw attention to some of the problems I think exist for ret damage or full tanks.

@malawiglenn - When playing a full tank and party support that extra damage red. on Warcry can count in clutch situations, and the extra range means I can taunt almost the entire crucible arena in one cast from the centre, and the extra att. speed of Squad Tactics actively matters for the people I play with. I max fighting spirit on most other builds but as a ret. build OA/crit/crit damage actively doesn't affect retaliation damage at all (last I checked) and so it felt pointless. But now considering ret. damage just really can't compare to other damage types and I can't keep threat on me to proc said ret damage I feel switching away from ret damage and going for more OA/outward damage sources is my only option, but that isn't what I wanted this build to be, which sucks EDIT: I see what you mean now sorry, the overcap gives a *total* of 1% and .6 range, not 1% and .6 per level over, my mistake on that!

@Superfluff - I've been watching the streams and seen the devotions you mention but it doesn't look like it'll be huge amounts with those small percentages, but seeing it in action will likely change my opinion, and there's been nothing mentioned about soldiers getting skills to deal ret. damage that I could find, so I fear my Commando linked earlier will never be able to do a ret. build and it will only be achieved by going Oathbreaker
EDIT: Also super jealous of the Praetorians, I wasn't aware of the opening's til after they were filled/closed already and it'd be my absolute dream to be one haha.


I'm going to be playing a ret. full tank Oathkeeper/Soldier (Warlord) for sure when I get into the expac, but I'd like to know if a build like my current one will become viable or ever have something done to help it out, more threat generation would be nice (no idea why it would ever be ok that a full tank can't hold threat...) but also some way to deal with spell casters that doesn't revolve around them hitting you (as they don't hit you that often) and just generally being able to solo clear in a reasonable time rather than as long as it takes currently. Diablo 3 just recently buffed their thorns build up into the top tiers and I'd love to see something like that happen here! I wanna see ret. full tank builds that can clear Crucible 150-170, in a reasonable enough time to maintain multipliers at least. So far I cannot find any in the build compendiums.

I'm also thinking of experimenting with the Stoneguard set again and just running 4 set of Markovian as that seemed to do more ret. damage and I was slightly tankier with it, but we'll see what happens. Thank you for all your inputs! They are helpful even if some were slightly condescending in tone haha.

Last edited by LokiGoC; 02-12-2019 at 04:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:52 PM
USER_NAME_01's Avatar
USER_NAME_01 USER_NAME_01 is offline
Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,514
Default

You don't necessarily have to sacrifice defense for damage nor be a pure retaliation build. This build I made few months ago deals 40k DPS with its own hits + 20 - 60k DPS if I receive enough hits. This is NOT a retaliation build, nor a damage build. It's a tank that doesn't die at all. The only possible threat might be Mogdrogen, although I've not tested how it does vs. him. My build, believe it or not, does more damage (I have way more RR than you) than your and is way tankier. I'm not saying your build is bad, it's not, but it could use some adjustments.

If we're talking about retaliation tanks, and you think I have no experience or anything, I've made one some time ago. 200k damage per hit received, 50% elemental RR, 400k damage when fully buffed. Ravager died in less than 5 mins (I'm now kinda curious if it was under 5 mins or actually way less). Again, my build is way better than yours, even though the resists are kinda bad. Constant ~1900 heal from Wendigo Totem (+500 HP regen) saves me from having shitty resists and I never had any issues with it. Even Ravager never made me lose less than 10% HP.

I do have experience with tanks, and even though I don't really like your build I can admit it's good in a way, but would be definitely better with some adjustments, for example RR, more retaliation damage. Also, don't take my comments as hate.
__________________
I don't play Crucible.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:58 PM
malawiglenn's Avatar
malawiglenn malawiglenn is online now
Lord Advocate
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 4,104
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by USER_NAME_01 View Post
You don't necessarily have to sacrifice defense for damage nor be a pure retaliation build.
Nice GD-stashing

why no Deadly Aim?!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir spanksalot View Post
OOOOH HO HO. YOU DISGUSTING GDSTASHING RAT.
This is gonna be a new addition to my signature
YouTube: malawiglenn
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:59 PM
USER_NAME_01's Avatar
USER_NAME_01 USER_NAME_01 is offline
Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,514
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by malawiglenn View Post
Nice GD-stashing
What does that have to do with GDStashing?
__________________
I don't play Crucible.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:59 PM
Superfluff's Avatar
Superfluff Superfluff is offline
Praetorian
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 6,688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LokiGoC View Post
but seeing it in action will likely change my opinion
...

It will
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evok View Post
I find it personally insulting to die to shit falling on my head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantai
I don't have much sympathy
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Grim Dawn ©2019 Crate Entertainment, LLC.
vBulletin® 3.8.11 ©2000-2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.