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  #21  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:36 AM
OlerOnion OlerOnion is offline
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Originally Posted by Superfluff View Post
Yeah kind of. But maybe not spammable but included in wepon attacks. If that 8 bolt shotgun ability had a 33% or 50% chance to proc on Crit and cast speed replaced with attack speed it's be down with it right now! Combine that with ABB and it's a winner.
Included with weapon attacks and making it benefit from attack speed is an interesting choice. Was already kind of thinking on a similar wavelength but didn't get as far as you did to consider attack speed over casting speed (was still stuck in thinking about making the casting speed focus on Northern Wyrm not seem so impractical). Such an item would be really fun though and I like fun.

Sometimes the most fun ideas to me could be in danger of being OP but they could even err on the safe side of it being underpowered for me initially by giving it too little damage, e.g., and due for a buff instead of a nerf. I actually like underpowered items that seem like they yield rich build ideas over ones that seem too obviously tailor-made to something very, very specific that's far more powerful.

Last edited by OlerOnion; 10-13-2016 at 11:38 AM.
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  #22  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:43 AM
OlerOnion OlerOnion is offline
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Originally Posted by Superfluff View Post
Told ya :P. and that's why I'd like 50% on crit proc. To use poth the proc and not waste the damage on the weapon and ABB. Otherwise it's like a weak Phantasmal Blades which is what I get the feeling Wyrm was made for. Just couldn't see it because of the Arcanist + skills somehow. It made me thing Star Pact+ABB and nothing else for some reason. But I'd have to try it first and see if it actually works.
Those kinds of spammable skills and weapon attacks that deliver AoE in a wide variety of interesting ways while interacting with procs are one of the areas where I think the game is platinum and I'd love to see more of that.

One of the first items that caught my attention in this regard is Vortex of Souls. Never before in a game did I get so excited just looking at an item's stats and thinking up ways to use it and I have nothing but compliments for the game design in accomplishing such a feat. Those types of items just seem so exciting to me, like the kind I wouldn't mind creating a whole new character build around just to explore. They're just brimming with interesting possibilities. But so many items just make me yawn -- Vortex seems more like a very, very exceptional case of the game doing something incredibly interesting with the item design, not an example echoed by a lot of other items... but that might be mitigated with suggestions like yours.

The one thing that got me with GD before on this general note before was the wide range of damage types. To be viable for the most difficult content requires generally choosing and focusing on just one or two out of the 11 different damage types available (err 17 actually) and finding items that support that damage type. That often implies that massive chunks of the item database won't be suitable for the majority of builds, we're just inevitably going to collect so much loot that our characters can't use just from the damage types alone. It compartmentalizes items in the game to the extent that a soldier might find himself ineffective with a sword for the simple reason that it pierces armor and ends up just having legendary swords with too much armor piercing clutter up his stash. But I've come to kind of accept that -- the part that bothers me is when, on top of that, an item is specifically saying it's for a spellbreaker, e.g. It's like items don't need to be rendered more narrow in utility than they already often are by just concentrating on one type of damage. The problem doesn't need to be multiplied. Damage types already restricts them to such a tremendous degree in terms of build viability.

Last edited by OlerOnion; 10-13-2016 at 03:50 PM.
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  #23  
Old 10-13-2016, 12:12 PM
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Seppuku Seppuku is offline
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(also why wield a crossbow if you're never gonna shoot with it?)
Same issue with demon slayer set, you have a gun but you can only use spell...
This kind of item are generaly not powerfull (demonslayer set is underpower) and boring to use, their concept are failed.
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  #24  
Old 10-13-2016, 11:55 PM
Dioarchet Dioarchet is offline
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Originally Posted by Superfluff View Post
The granted skill on Empowered Frigid Quillbreath is objectetively better than Northern Wyrm.
Maybe. It only requires about 4 out of the 8 projectiles to land in order to equalize damage. But the spread is so wide that you have to be quite close to land more than 2. Maybe too close for comfort. Whereas Wyrm's ability is a slow-moving wave with built-in freeze, ideally suited to counter chargers. It's probably safe to say Wyrm is more defensive while Quillbreath is more offensive.

Wave abilities are generally based on cast speed. I guess the developer's vision for the cast speed bonus is just so that the player can cast the Wyrm ability a bit quicker, assuming the player has stacked attack speed instead.

That said, just because a bonus is there doesn't mean you have to use it. Take Prismatic Eviscerator for example. It has a bonus to CT. But in practice nobody uses it for CT because CT builds also take Devastation and Devastation can't work with 2H weapons.
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  #25  
Old 10-14-2016, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by OlerOnion View Post
Those kinds of spammable skills and weapon attacks that deliver AoE in a wide variety of interesting ways while interacting with procs are one of the areas where I think the game is platinum and I'd love to see more of that.

One of the first items that caught my attention in this regard is Vortex of Souls. Never before in a game did I get so excited just looking at an item's stats and thinking up ways to use it and I have nothing but compliments for the game design in accomplishing such a feat. Those types of items just seem so exciting to me, like the kind I wouldn't mind creating a whole new character build around just to explore. They're just brimming with interesting possibilities. But so many items just make me yawn -- Vortex seems more like a very, very exceptional case of the game doing something incredibly interesting with the item design, not an example echoed by a lot of other items... but that might be mitigated with suggestions like yours.

T.
Vortex + Brimstone = Scattershot from Titan Quest. Impressive mob clear speed.

Vortex +Primal strike with transmuter= same as above pretty much.

It's a pretty op weapon
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  #26  
Old 10-14-2016, 08:46 AM
OlerOnion OlerOnion is offline
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Originally Posted by Superfluff View Post
Vortex + Brimstone = Scattershot from Titan Quest. Impressive mob clear speed.

Vortex +Primal strike with transmuter= same as above pretty much.

It's a pretty op weapon
It's screaming that it's in danger of being OP to me because it's so interesting and special. As far as I know it's the only weapon in the *entire* database that deals AoE as a *weapon* property and not a skill.

And one way to balance the game in those cases is make everything more boring, take away the 100% pierce through property of Vortex of Souls and make it like every other rifle... and balancing of that sort is effective from a balancing standpoint, but it reduces everything to a common denominator (not so effective from a fun factor and variety standpoint).

Another, much bolder way to seek balance is to make everything more interesting! Imagine Vortex wasn't a super exceptional weapon in the database. Imagine it's a legendary sniper rifle, and sniper rifles have that 100% pierce through enemies property but they fire slowly.

Imagine we also had a legendary shotgun that fires 6 projectiles in a 30 degree arc. Imagine we also had a legendary machine gun that does low damage but fires 6 times faster with crazy attack speed bonus.

In that case the game actually becomes easier to balance as well because everything is interesting, everything is arguably just as good as the other, just different pros and cons (machine gun vs. shotgun vs. sniper). Expanding the example to melee weapons, imagine legendary melee weapons do short-range but wide and powerful AoE arcs and waves inherent as a property of the weapon to match ranged.

With that, a lot of endgame characters would be dealing AoE just from their weapons. Sniper commando builds would trigger lots of fire strike explosions by piercing through every enemy. Shotgun commandos would trigger lots of them from a projectile spread. Machine gun commandos would trigger lots of them from attacking insanely fast.

Having crazy interactions like the weapon AoE + fire strike or primal strike would be the norm, and the game's difficulty would likely be adjusted to take that into account. Likewise when such items aren't so exceptional, more properties will probably be introduced like making these items come with an "energy multiplier" property that makes them cost more energy to use when combined with skills (ex: making the shotgun take 3 times the energy of whatever skill it's used with). The nature of primal strike or fire strike might be adjusted to take such weapon AoE into account, making it so the lightning arcs from primal strike cannot hit the same enemy twice in a single shot firing multiple projectiles or a single projectile piercing through every enemy, and fire strike might be adjusted so that overlapping explosions from the same shot fired don't multiply damage.

That's going wild and off the deep end as an example of an extremely different kind of design mentality, but one intended to maximize interest but still achieve some reasonable sense of balance. The other extreme is minimize interest and variety besides just some simple numerical properties here and there the developers can dial up and down a bit to balance things out.

Fun shouldn't be too difficult to achieve with the bold approach -- balance might be a bit harder but not as hard as when you just have one freaking weapon in the entire database that does AoE. I'd actually like to see more weapons like Vortex to help make the game easier to balance, not less.

Last edited by OlerOnion; 10-14-2016 at 08:55 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-14-2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by OlerOnion View Post
It's screaming that it's in danger of being OP to me because it's so interesting and special. As far as I know it's the only weapon in the *entire* database that deals AoE as a *weapon* property and not a skill.

.
Not quite. Design was smarter than that. Where you get a huge gain (AOE clear speed) you also get loss (single target damage). If you check out Jajaja's Primal Strike Conjurer for example you will see that for tough bosses like Shar'zul he switches from Vortex to Ultos' Stormseeker two handed axe.

Nevertheless the weapon is great fun. If not conjurer I'd make a Sorceror with reckless power, Fire strike, Widow and Solael devotion+Shadowflame shoulders. Single target would still be an issue though so no OPness.

The only thing truly OP that was in the game until recently was the no CD on Deathmarked weapons. That was abolutely devastating. They have been nerfed though.
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  #28  
Old 10-14-2016, 08:57 AM
OlerOnion OlerOnion is offline
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Not quite. Design was smarter than that. Where you get a huge gain (AOE clear speed) you also get loss (single target damage).
That's natural since AoE doesn't apply to single targets and a rifle is generally going to be weaker than a 2-handed axe. The example you gave of OP was primal strike + Vortex which is multiplying the amount of AoE being dealt which is what you get from an interaction between inherent weapon AoE and skill AoE (primal strike, fire strike).

What I meant is just conceptually at the meta level in a game design, if you have one weapon in the entire database that does something so special that is unlike any other, that's usually in extreme danger of being OP, especially during its very first release (before subsequent updates and patches).

When you have just one rifle in the entire database like this that is so unusual, it usually risks the game designers forgetting about its existence whenever they introduce new game concepts. It's too easy if you just have one very exceptional item in the entire game like this when introducing a new skill, for example, to remember: "Oh wait, I need to pay special attention to how this works with Vortex of Souls." Meanwhile if lots of weapons have inherent AoE, every game decision is easy to revolve around that fact. There will be common case reminders and to test against instead of just one super rare case item to watch out for as being so unusual.

A way to look at it is that games are prone to OP/balancing issues when there are just a small number of things that really stick out as being far more special and desirable than the rest. Vortex has that going in spades when focusing on AoE. What I'd like to see (dreamy talk, not an expectation) is not nerfs to eliminate the AoE piercing of Vortex, but actually buffs and new interesting weapons (melee and ranged) that also have AoE as an inherent weapon property and maybe an overall increase to the difficulty of the game (particular mobs, bosses will never get easier with more AoE).

I just have a love for very bold/ballsy game designs that are willing to take a risk. Procs to me in this one are a wonderful example of really bold game design. That's an extremely risky choice that takes lots of balls if you want a very balanced game to have random interactions going off everywhere on top of what the player is already doing with a massive variety of ways to trigger and combine them independent of your mastery choices. Vortex of Souls is another example of really bold game design. To me a game that actually takes very bold decisions in many places is actually easier to balance than one who takes them only in a few places. It might be a personal sentiment from having worked in the industry where lots of companies are playing it safe -- safe and uninspired by tired developers just wanting to make sure everything's all balanced and totally fair. The parts that draw me to this game's design are the parts that aren't playing it safe where the developers really pushed and exaggerated the design in ways that are bolder than a lot of other games... it's usually something you only see in smaller, highly-collaborative teams, not huge development teams, and generally most at the early stages before flooded with feedback... just hungry for more of that.

Last edited by OlerOnion; 10-14-2016 at 09:41 AM.
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  #29  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:50 PM
Serimert Serimert is offline
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What will happen to this weapon then?
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