#11  
Old 09-12-2015, 10:12 AM
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MatMB MatMB is offline
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Forcewave is great for shield user, but i suspect that in higher difficulty the skill will be more useful for a stun effect, armor reduction and Dots than for its raw dmg. currently it can still blow trash mobs easily anyway.

as for Discord, maybe it will be better to have it split into two modifiers, one which converts physical into elemental (synergy with IEE), the other converts physical into chaos (synergy with SWF). the modifier doesn't work quite well currently but the idea behind is very interesting, i would regret to see it abandoned.

i totally support Ceno's first point however
  #12  
Old 09-12-2015, 12:01 PM
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kyleblake92 kyleblake92 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackx View Post
The only real use for Discord I could see is with minimal investment in Cadence itself on a caster weapon, so you spent 5 points total for a double-hit every third strike and +100% chaos/elemental. That'd likely be a build where melee attacks aren't your main damage source, though.

With conversion, at the skill stage of damage calculation, you want more phyiscal damage, not less, and you want %dmg to be applied from gear/attributes, after converting from your (high) physical damage.

Then there's the fact that conversion unsupported by skills isn't very appealing, and both auto-attack replacers do a much better job at supporting their associated magical damage type than Cadence ever could.

Discord was designed for when stacking large amounts of flat magical damage was how you made a non-physical melee build...
OMG this is so true! I didn't really think about it in that way. With my Druid I've achieved 79% conversion so reducing the physical damage is taking that in the wrong direction. I also agree with Ceno. I would like to see a transmuter which increases damage for those who use a shiled.
  #13  
Old 09-12-2015, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatMB View Post
as for Discord, maybe it will be better to have it split into two modifiers, one which converts physical into elemental (synergy with IEE), the other converts physical into chaos (synergy with SWF). the modifier doesn't work quite well currently but the idea behind is very interesting, i would regret to see it abandoned.
I touched on this a bit in point 2. The problem with using conversion on this skill is that in some ways it may become even worse than it is presently. Say you're using a Fire build and take Discord; if 50% Physical converted to Chaos and 50% Physical converted to Elemental, you'd be winding up with 16.5% of Cadence's Physical Damage as Fire Damage. That's pitiful. (50% Elemental * 33% Elemental Split = 16.5%) It'd be pretty good for chaos, though.

That's why I suggested using the %Damage Modified stat. It could act a little like conversion if we first reduced the Physical Damage on the main skill. Suppose we reduced the base Physical Damage by 50%. If we then gave a 33% Damage Modification to the skill, we'd wind up with ~67% Physical Damage (compared to the base skill; 50% * 133% = 66.5%; this is actually more Physical Damage than Discord gives us now, so maybe tune it back beyond 50%) while also giving a multiplicative 33% increase to any other damage types we have (Piercing included). It's far more universal and helps to overcome Conversion's fallbacks.

Edit: Thinking about it, better numbers might be 50% Reduced Physical Damage and 20% Damage Modification. Multiplication in an additive game is strong.




So that solves Cadence's problem from the magical standpoint. But then the question arises of how well Cadence performs when using one weapon and an offhand. I'd argue that the answer is "not well at all" in light of recent nerfs, where 1H/offhand already was lackluster with Cadence (it could get the job done, just very slowly. The nerfs worsened that situation significantly.). Hence the shield/offhand transmuter could be a good path to take.

I wonder if one skill can have two transmuters...
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Last edited by Ceno; 09-12-2015 at 03:55 PM.
  #14  
Old 09-12-2015, 04:25 PM
Grohuf Grohuf is offline
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I do not understand problems with DW. Synergy with DW was fixed in recent patch was not it? So no extra procs of cadence. No problems.
Problem of Discord that it do not synergy with Conversion. If would synergy then it would be fine skill
  #15  
Old 09-12-2015, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Grohuf View Post
I do not understand problems with DW. Synergy with DW was fixed in recent patch was not it? So no extra procs of cadence. No problems.
There is no problem with DW. That's the point, DW has been brought to a good position. Cadence, however, has been nerfed too much for non-DW/non-2H builds to make good use of it.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceno View Post
There is no problem with DW. That's the point, DW has been brought to a good position. Cadence, however, has been nerfed too much for non-DW/non-2H builds to make good use of it.
It's typical overreaction of developers to the problem. That's why I wrote "nerf nerf nerf".
Soldier mastery needs passive with flat physical bonus which will be useful only by 1h+shield. Because 2h and DW have not troubles.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:25 PM
gabfou gabfou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grohuf View Post
It's typical overreaction of developers to the problem. That's why I wrote "nerf nerf nerf".
Soldier mastery needs passive with flat physical bonus which will be useful only by 1h+shield. Because 2h and DW have not troubles.
They was trying that on MC but that was overpowered.

Maybe on veterancy.
  #18  
Old 09-12-2015, 06:31 PM
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Veterancy is only really somethin you take on block heavy builds, maybe swap the % physical damage on decorated soldier for flat damage?
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  #19  
Old 09-12-2015, 06:58 PM
Grohuf Grohuf is offline
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Originally Posted by the8anarchist View Post
Veterancy is only really somethin you take on block heavy builds, maybe swap the % physical damage on decorated soldier for flat damage?
Decorated soldier would be used by DW builds.
  #20  
Old 09-12-2015, 07:25 PM
corporateslave corporateslave is online now
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The two existing skills that might make sense for a dmg bonus only usable by characters with a shield would be Overguard and Veterancy. Overguard already has a lot going on and is a temporary buff, so that's out. The most logical place to put it would be on Veterancy. Or, as Ceno suggests, it could be placed on a transmuter for Cadence. I'm just reluctant to lose a magical damage transmuter. I like having skills which offer options for damage types.
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