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  #11  
Old 03-04-2017, 02:08 PM
Norzan Norzan is offline
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"But please don't tell me that the game is SP as a design preference, that would be silly."

It actually is a design preference. The developers themselves said so and i'm glad they did.

I'm honestly getting sick and tired of every ARPG these days having to focus on multiplayer. What happened to just playing single player and be done with? Now everything needs multiplayer or it sucks (Can this mentality just die?).
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  #12  
Old 03-04-2017, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveD2 View Post
Servers are not that expensive tbh
I get the impression that maybe you don't know what you are talking about.

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  #13  
Old 03-04-2017, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powbam View Post
I get the impression that maybe you don't know what you are talking about.
Well servers are fairly cheap. The expense is really related to everything needed to support the servers and their function.

TBH, I'm pretty sure you know/meant this, not so sure about LoveD2.
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  #14  
Old 03-04-2017, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by powbam View Post
I get the impression that maybe you don't know what you are talking about.

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I'm certain that you don't. I know the cost of servers for certain from what I do for a living.

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Originally Posted by ibugsy View Post
Well servers are fairly cheap. The expense is really related to everything needed to support the servers and their function.

TBH, I'm pretty sure you know/meant this, not so sure about LoveD2.
I already mentioned the ancillary costs, security and game balance issues. Unlike you, I'm not convinced that he meant that. Many games just get it up and running and address issues of balance etc as they come up. There's a fair bit of gaming know-how around now so it's not as expensive as it used to be to get MP running, especially with the cloud services available now.

Even a pure fan-base D2 mod like MXL Ultimative can run their own servers (The Sin War). That should tell you all you need to know - those guys do it for fun in their spare time.

It seems that daring to critique the great GD game doesn't go down well here (not surprising). I only wanted a simple answer about alternatives, TQAE in particular. Since it's now off-topic I'll just say thanks to those who responded with suggestions and move on.

Last edited by LoveD2; 03-04-2017 at 08:43 PM.
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  #15  
Old 03-04-2017, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveD2 View Post
I'm certain that you don't. I know the cost of servers for certain from what I do for a living.

I already mentioned the ancillary costs.
There won't be servers for GD no matter which way you slice it and it would have still been a nice chunk of change to initially setup, nevermind the cost of retrofitting the engine to handle this form of mp, maintenance/employee costs, monthly bandwidth fees, expanding the infrastructure if the game goes crazy viral etc.

Go do a search on what Blizzard spends on monthly server costs to keep WoW running. While GD would never approach that level nor is it an MMO anyway, it kinda spells "mf'n expensive" to me.

They began work on the game in 2010, Kickstarter 2012, Steam EA 2013.

The time has long passed for them to jump on that train.

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Last edited by powbam; 03-04-2017 at 08:41 PM.
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  #16  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveD2 View Post
1. Please go and have a read of the builds stickied in the builds forum. They even have a code in the title (l) for levelling guide and the levelling guide usually says "Start as dual wield using ABB/OFF until level 50" or something like that.
just did, there are 10 Spellbreakers (focused on those as your OP referrred to them), one of them mentions something like this, the other 9 don't...

Even so, this is purely optional, I never did level differently in order to later respec into something entirely different...

Quote:
And ofc most are heavily item-dependant as well.
that they are, because they are optimal builds, so what do you expect

Most builds are not 'this is how I managed to beat Log with self-found gear', but 'this is the best gear for this build after extensive farming'

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2. Re servers/multiplayer. I dispute that. Multiplayer is a very sought-after feature.
very sought-after by a small percentage of players...

Quote:
Servers are not that expensive tbh.
I was not very precise here, I was not just referring to server maintenance but to having code for a server based game. Crate estimated it to cost about as much as GD itself... and since only about 10% of people really care, that is not feasible

Quote:
And someone said "there is no need for multiplayer in a primarily single player game". Er... sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either it's too expensive (it isn't) or it's by design (it probably isn't).
it is, and given that it is a predominantly SP game it also is not an important feature on which to spend a lot of money

Quote:
I'm sure any dev these days would include a multiplayer aspect if they could
I am sure that this is a waste of money for the majority of games, maybe that also is why most games do not actually do so....

Of the recent ARPGs, neither Torchlight 2, nor Van Helsing nor Victor Vran offered closed servers, only D3 and PoE did...

Quote:
A small developer needs to see some return on their investment asap, so releasing a game without multiplayer can make sense to get it to market sooner.
Actually I question whether including closed servers would ever break even for them, personally I do not think so

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It adds a lot to the game play and gives the game much more replayability.
maybe to you, for me it is a waste of resources, I would never use it

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I'd rather see multiplayer than new masteries in the upcoming expansion, for example, I think they made the wrong choice there.
just goes to show that you have no idea what is important for the majority of players and what is not. You cannot simply extrapolate from what you want

Quote:
But please don't tell me that the game is SP as a design preference, that would be silly.
why ? many games are SP by design, your bias towards MP shows

Last edited by mamba; 03-04-2017 at 09:26 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:41 PM
LoveD2
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You didn't read very well then - those are very long threads so I guess it's difficult to read, but I've read many threads very recently and most of them say "respec at level 50+" SOMEWHERE in the thread. Not just spellbreakers, others too.
I'm sure as hell not going to re-read them all then write a massive post just to prove you wrong, but I know that you are wrong.


Other poster - what Blizzard spends on WoW is not remotely comparable to a small game. If it gets that popular they'd be happy to have that problem.

And to be honest - Blizzard's MP is still recovering from a very bad start.

The real cost of MP is developing a messaging system and securing it. As I said before, this knowledge is now much more ubiquitous than it used to be in the gaming world.

Multiplayer adds to every game. Period. If you want to argue that, I'll leave you to argue among yourselves. Bye.
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  #18  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:43 PM
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Here are some thoughts on it (servers) by Zantai:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/21999...43117529944658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
1) The game engine was built for client-hosted MP sessions. The engine would require significant changes to accommodate a server hosted MP experience. $$$

2) Maintaining servers, anti-cheat and community features requires monthly upkeep. Online services would require additional customer support. $$$

3) Most (upwards of 90%) players actually play ARPGs exclusively singleplayer.

4) That's a feature a game really needs to ship with to have a strong impact on its community growth.

We do see requests for such a feature from time to time but, from a financial perspective, it's not feasible for us at this point.
http://darkmatters.org/forums/index....oper-responds/ <-- Q & A from 2013. Not quite so relevant now as he has essentially said in more recent posts that no, closed servers will not be happening.
Quote:
(Q) 4) Do you ever see dedicated open/closed servers for the game?

(A) We would love to be able to support closed servers and it may be possible in time. We know this is a very important feature for the online hardcore audience. It would require reworking of the engine and setting up and maintaining servers, which is costly and beyond the means of our fledgling studio at this time. If Grim Dawn is enough of a financial success, we might be able to hire the additional people we would need and cover the expenses of setting up dedicated servers.

Last edited by powbam; 03-04-2017 at 09:48 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:48 PM
Norzan Norzan is offline
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Those threads SUGGEST for you to use a certain skill and then respec to the main skill. They never once say that is mandatory for you to use a skill for leveling.

Out of 17 builds i made so far, i only leveled one with a skill i didn't used at the end.

Also no, multiplayer doesn't always add to every game. I can name several games that neutered the single player in favor of multiplayer and all it did in the end was harm the series. It seems you are trying to pass it off as a fact, but it isn't.
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Last edited by Norzan; 03-04-2017 at 09:51 PM.
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  #20  
Old 03-04-2017, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveD2 View Post
Multiplayer adds to every game. Period. If you want to argue that, I'll leave you to argue among yourselves. Bye.
bye then

I was arguing that the cost is frequently not justified, but quite frankly MP adds next to nothing for me at all times. At best I consider it a neutral feature, when it does not negatively affect SP - which it does in D3 and PoR (drop rate) - and is optional. I always consider mandatory closed servers a negative
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