#61  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:29 AM
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yerkyerk yerkyerk is offline
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Well, the problem with gamer expectation is that players do not always know what they want or will enjoy most (even though they clearly state what they want). While it's important not to completely alienate players, I do think some evolution in the genre is necessary to keep the gamers interested.

Potions currently (are supposed to) serve as panic buttons; but so could skills. The Stone Form skill in TQ is a very interesting example in this; if potion mechanics would change, it'd work perfect if players would fully regenerate health and energy while in stasis.

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Having to stop and wait while you're character is immobilized by a potion drinking animation achieves a very different result from keeping the game pace up. I think we could come up with a more elegant solution here that better achieves that goal if, indeed, this is the role that we believe potions should play.
Well - you could at least drink potions while running. You just wouldn't be able to use skills or dish out damage. So it'd work quite well for between-battles.
But it is indeed the question what you would want potions to serve as.

I did find that in TQ it depended a lot on the class you were playing; melee classes used to turn into permanent alcoholics (where the health potion mechanics could be replaced by an auto-drink option - drink one potion on encounter and than keep on drinking till all enemies are defeated - removing or reducing health regeneration in favor of instahealing could work to solve this problem partially), whereas casters and summoners could go through the game relatively sober. So for my melee characters, I couldn't use potions as a panic button since I already used them as a battle mechanic.

I found it both challenging and refreshing to try and complete the game without using any health or mana potions. The Soothsayer was one of the few classes I saw fit to this task myself, as it had good health (Nature) and mana (Dark Covenant) recharge skills. If each mastery has at least one panic button (which are cool anyway - and they'll give the player two panic skills per battle) and ways to recharge mana (mana steal, mana regen, mana recharge-per-hit, etc..) I think it'd take care of the issues; replacing health potions as panic buttons and mana potions altogether.

Players would actually have to invest in skills and strategies that keep them in a constant mana flow though - which, I think, is only a good thing, as it brings more depth and variety to the game.
Mana as it was in TQ might as well be completely removed, as the only function it served was having players press the 'e' button whenever they ran out.

Heh, I guess I just suggested to remove mana potions from the game - well, its effects could at least be coupled with the health potion - if it were to be implemented as a game pace potion instead of a panic button..

My next step would be to give the player infite potions, as it's annoying to keep the supply stock up and players will have insane amount of potions anyway, once money allows it. It would take away a goldsink though; so perhaps drinking potions could be made to use up resources (health potions with extra salt!).

Meh, perhaps these suggestions are too much a derivation from the fixed and winning formulae. I still think they're important issues though..
I would love to see the health potion thing fixed though, as it felt a bit like cheating. If not, well, I'd still play the game and most likely enjoy it.

Last edited by yerkyerk; 01-31-2010 at 12:39 AM.
  #62  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:37 AM
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shawnmck shawnmck is offline
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If you are gonna do away with health potions, then you might as well do away with a health bar as well.
I personally like health potions, I just don't like it when they take up so much inventory space.
I haven't tried Diablo 3's take on health orbs, so I won't comment on it.
  #63  
Old 01-31-2010, 12:47 AM
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My idea is not to remove them; rather to focus on which purpose they actually serve (panic buttons/permanent health regen buff) and which purpose I personally think they should serve (maintaining game pace).
  Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #64  
Old 01-31-2010, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yerkyerk View Post
Well, the problem with gamer expectation is that players do not always know what they want or will enjoy most (even though they clearly state what they want).

Meh, perhaps these suggestions are too much a derivation from the fixed and winning formulae. I still think they're important issues though..
I would love to see the health potion thing fixed though, as it felt a bit like cheating. If not, well, I'd still play the game and most likely enjoy it.
Hehe... I totally agree with these two paragraphs! ; p

Sorry, I don't mean to make light of your argument at all - I think you have identified a real problem that needs to be addressed. I just think that the solution requires more minor changes to the mechanics and better balancing. I think the type of changes you're suggesting will have far reaching effects and require a complete overhaul of the fundamental combat mechanics due to the interdependency of many gameplay mechanics.

I think the first thing that needs to be done is that damage should be less consistent. Average damage caused by enemies should be lowered so that the player isn't just constantly hemorrhaging out health. There should be more pronounced spikes in damage that give you those oh-shit moments in combat. One of the ways this will be accomplished is with fodder enemies that miss the player more often and have a wider damage range.

Better health recovery skills for most classes to deal with health-loss during combat will help reserve health potions more for the oh-shit moments and less for general health upkeep.

Changing health potions to instantly heal rather than boost regeneration will be considered but I'm not fully certain that this is a good idea and will want to test it thoroughly before making a conclusion.

Rapid regen while not in combat will also help to reduce the necessity of drinking potions for basic health upkeep. Also if players can rapidly regen health outside of combat, we don't have as much pressure to ensure that potions are always available to players. This means we can make them more expensive and harder to find.

I'll think some more on mana potions too. I tend to believe we just need to make them more scarce / expensive and put in more alternative means of boosting energy regen so casters aren't reliant on them.
  #65  
Old 01-31-2010, 07:06 AM
Disturbed Disturbed is offline
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I don`t agree with the official posters statements because potions can always be sold. Althoygh some of the suggestions are not bad.
  #66  
Old 01-31-2010, 07:31 AM
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I think this is a bit off topic but: Is there any possibilities of new mechanic for different classes from using mana? Like rage for berserker, or gunpowder for detonator, or soul for ritual, or combo for rogue?
  This is the last staff post in this thread.   #67  
Old 01-31-2010, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexei View Post
I think this is a bit off topic but: Is there any possibilities of new mechanic for different classes from using mana? Like rage for berserker, or gunpowder for detonator, or soul for ritual, or combo for rogue?
Probably not - this would take a lot of work and I just don't think we have the time to it with everything else that we're trying to accomplish.
  #68  
Old 01-31-2010, 01:20 PM
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You could change the mana bar from blue to orange, rename it "Rage", and rename mana potions to rage potions.

Instant rage system!
  #69  
Old 01-31-2010, 02:15 PM
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yerkyerk yerkyerk is offline
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'nuff said about health potions. Thanks for considering the points.
Let's focus on mana potions than

Making mana potions scarce/expensive - not sure if that really works. A lot depends on how you're going to handle the economics (in TQ it wouldn't matter how expensive they were, as economy was completely broken). And making them scarce defeats the point of having them as a mechanism to keep the game pace up.
Keeping mana as it is will mean that the attribute remains pointless; as can be witnessed in pretty much any guide about builds - or any advice given to players on forums (although for a few builds 4 points in energy are adviced).

Perhaps remove mana potions altogether, or an out-of-battle mana regen?
Here's a few skills that could help players keep a good amount of mana;
  • %Mana steal - steals mana (would only work on enemies with mana)
  • %Mana Circle - any sort of skill that gives a mana regen in a certain area (e.g. Briar Ward)
  • %Mana Recharge (skill that gives mana regeneration - could be at a cost, like Dark Covenant)
  • %Mana Boost - quickly regenerates mana when pressing rightmouse button - the player can't use any other skills though
  • Convert (magic) damage to mana (e.g. get hit for a 500 fire damage => 100 damage is converted directly to mana, so player receives 400 fire damage and 100 mana)
  • Give 1 mana per hit (not exactly the same as mana steal - works on all enemies, always gives a fixed return)
  • Panic button rejuvenation - a lot of panic buttons could offer a form of mana regeneration (e.g. Stone Form)
  • Get 1 mana per received hit
Investing in such skills actually makes sense if mana means something. Currently, mana regen skills are pointless because mana itself can be completely ignored if you have enough potions.

Last edited by yerkyerk; 01-31-2010 at 02:18 PM.
  #70  
Old 01-31-2010, 02:52 PM
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alexei alexei is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roros View Post
You could change the mana bar from blue to orange, rename it "Rage", and rename mana potions to rage potions.

Instant rage system!
Just about how I thought it would be, but introducing this would mean dev need to balance about drop for different potions for different class. Single player and multiplayer. Then again, classes in GD is like TQ, hybrid build where player choose class after level 2. If you choose earth and warfare, how complicated is that to implement? Earth should use mana and warfare more toward rage. I guess we should focus more on other thing. But if it can be done, it will be really cool!
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