#21  
Old 01-23-2018, 07:47 PM
Onmastikon Onmastikon is offline
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I've heard that the drawback with "this engine" (whatever "this" means in light of what has been said above) is that with it, movement skills which do not target an enemy but rather a space on the ground cannot be implemented. Is this accurate? I've heard that this is the reason that they do not exist in this game, it is a constraint of the engine.
If this should prove to be accurate, I do hope that the engine could be modified or updated or changed for GD2. That is one very clear advantage, to me, that Path of Exile has. (I really find that game very, very good, and if it were playable without internet I would find it at least as good and perhaps in some ways superior to GD, but of course only in some ways.)
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  #22  
Old 01-23-2018, 09:46 PM
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Yes and no.

There is ONE movement skill that doesn't require a target, a blink, that works without a target but it couldn't work in GD (without mods) because it allows you to bypass all sorts of obstacles. It's more of a dev tool than anything.

Dynamite? No need, warp over that barrier.
Scrap? Don't bother building that bridge dude, just blink across.
Interesting cliff? Yeah its ok, once you teleport down there good luck getting out.

Yeah, the teleport skill that exists lets you teleport ANYWHERE. You can add a cooldown, you can kinda limit the range for it, but if you limit a teleport like that, why have one at all?

So, yes, teleport skills can work, but the problem is the engine doesn't really have good ways to limit your movement with said skill so it's not really viable. A jump/roll atm isn't possible, there is no template or animation possible for that.

To make these things work, it would require some engine upgrades for sure.
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  #23  
Old 01-23-2018, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
[..] we move on to GD2 and [..] we go on to GD2 [..]
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Originally Posted by durruti View Post
half-life 3 confirmed.
My 50 cents on this ( Even tho it's off-topic ) is that I hope Grim Dawn 2 never happens, I really don't think I am the only one. I would love to see Grim dawn cover the whole world map and become the WoW of ARPGs. Packed with all the stuff we already love.

I want the game to keep going. No sense in stopping something your making money and yeah - I respect working on the same project for a while gets really boring. However, most of us have the same job we to go to everyday and just deal with it so I don't know what else to say lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2018, 06:08 PM
LoreKeeper LoreKeeper is offline
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In contrast - I'm all in favor for GD2; but start by re-creating GD1 in a sexy new DirectX15 engine. And then expand to cover the whole world ^_^
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:01 PM
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I think the current Grim Dawn has a lot of possibilities for expansion; starting over with a new engine etc I'm not so sure about.
If they are going to start over, then do something new; but rehashing GD?
The current game can be developed and expanded incrementally as long as there is a player base willing to buy the expansions. I'm thinking of the kind of development cycle that Paradox games go through; or Firaxis; or Warcraft as someone else mentioned above.
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  #26  
Old 02-12-2018, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
Another major factor is that we didn't just get the engine, we got the entire code base, which saved a massive amount of time / money because we didn't have to recreate an entire ARPG gameplay, feature set and tools from scratch.

Even if you license a commercial engine, you still have a ton of work to do before you have any semblance of a game - unless what you're making is very similar to what that engine was created to do. If you're using Unreal to make a Gears of War clone, then you'd already have native support for a lot of the gameplay you wanted to create. If you're making an ARPG, you're not starting with much besides and engine and then you have to sift through or even try to rework existing code that is irrelevant to your game or not suited for it. Even the way levels are made in Unreal is not great for the way we wanted to build GD, so we'd either have to figure out how to work with it or create a new level editor and terrain system.

We'd still have to do a bunch of work before we could even click on the ground and make a character run around in an isometric view. Then you need to add loot mechanics, player inventory, skills, a skill system, combat mechanics and formulas... basically all the things that make an ARPG.

Starting with the TQ engine, we have everything, in terms of programming, we need to make a game with all the gameplay, features and UI of TQ. Then it's just a question of what we want to improve, add or remove. We've reworked huge portions of both the engine and game. On the engine side, we recently rewrote the renderer from scratch and previously replaced the physics engine, pathing engine, shader model, sound engine, added post effects, etc. The only thing really limiting us from replacing all of the engine components over time is that it has to support the art we've already created and we're sort of obligated to support older versions of directX because we supported them with the initial release and people running older systems wouldn't be able to play if we didn't.

Another issue is that a lot of what people interpret as being the look of the engine is actually the look of the art itself and how it was made. We started working on GD 8 years ago now and expectations for the size of texture resolutions and triangles on models was lower than they are today. A lot of what has improved with the look of the game over the years is just us updating art / redoing textures.

The thing that might have the biggest visual impact now would be to redo lighting and the way materials are rendered but that isn't really feasible unless we move on to GD2 and leave all this current art behind. If we go on to GD2 and no longer have to support older DX version or existing art, then we'd be free to make bigger updates to the engine.

Like Kamil said, the date an engine was originally created is sort of irrelevant since you can continually update it and eventually replace every part of it.
Considering the limitations you have to deal with, I'd say all of you at Crate are doing an amazing job on Grim Dawn.
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  #27  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:28 PM
marsovac marsovac is offline
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Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
Because the alternative was we don't exist.

Besides, what do you think most modern engines are? They're just iterations of engines created many years ago. Grim Dawn's engine is for all intents and purposes a new engine at this point with all of the tech changes we had made to modernize it.
Something you are still missing is the ability for the engine to have untargeted movement skills.
This one does not require GD2 but an expansion can be enough, where new skills are added to the trees or constellations.

Unfortunately Grim Dawn looks ancient in this regard in respect to Diablo 2 and PoE.

I'd better not compare it to D3 at all, that took this to the next level by providing obstacle avoidance and concurrent skill casting during these as well (i.e. warcry animation during whirlwind) and you don't get stuck as often happens in PoE.

A first step for you would be to at least try to implement the plain old D2 version of Whirlwind and/or a simpliefied PoE Whirling blades (directional to the target even if stuck in obstacles), and then try to work onward.

If you need a target try to fake it by moving a dummy 'invisible&immune' monster on the mouse cursor (should be created server side for each player and recognized/actionable only by the client of the player that initiated the skill) and see if pathing can help to guide the new skill.

The next step would be to periodically update the Whirlwind direction towards where pathing would lead and make it similar to D3 or PoE Cyclone.

This kind of approach could also be used for teleporting skills (same kind of teleport D3 has, that needs pathing to be able to go to the target location, i.e. does not work through closed doors) - infinite movement speed with stop animation.

Pathing in GD is quite ok for such scenarios, i've seen my char sometimes move around two screens inside a house i clicked when i was completely unaware where i should go to enter it.

I never looked at the code of the Titan Quest engine but I'm sure that some kind of hack would be easily achievable.

You can make the game beautiful as much as you like but ultimately will die because of lacking gameplay and usability/user experience.
Something repetitive as grinding requires the latter to give longevity to the game.

Last edited by marsovac; 06-12-2018 at 06:58 PM.
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  Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #28  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marsovac View Post
Something you are still missing is the ability for the engine to have untargeted movement skills.

Unfortunately Grim Dawn looks ancient in this regard in respect to Diablo 2 and PoE.

I'd better not compare it to D3 at all, that took this to the next level by providing obstacle avoidance as well and you don't get stuck as often happens in PoE.

A first step for you would be to at least try to implement the plain old D2 version of Whirlwind and/or a simpliefied PoE Whirling blades, and then try to work onward.

If you need a target try to fake it by adding an invisible monster on the mouse cursor and see if pathing can help.
Cough...

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72690
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  #29  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:57 PM
Norzan Norzan is offline
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Originally Posted by marsovac View Post
Unfortunately Grim Dawn looks ancient in this regard in respect to Diablo 2 and PoE.
Even if movement skills that don't require a target weren't gonna be in the game (even though they are, Zantai just linked the thread) doesn't mean the game is ancient in this regard.

Not every game in this genre is supposed to be a bunch of cracked up rabbits running around super fast, specially not like PoE. And the game is not gonna die if this wasn't added to the game. If anything, i'm concerned if this is going to make the game like PoE in terms of speed, which is absolutely ridiculous in that game. One of the things i like about this game is the moderate speed. which is not a bad thing in a lot of cases.

And if Whirlwind is added to the game, add a cooldown. Running around like the Tazmanian Devil looks really stupid to me.
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Last edited by Norzan; 06-12-2018 at 07:03 PM.
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  #30  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:06 PM
marsovac marsovac is offline
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Originally Posted by Norzan View Post
Not every game in this genre is supposed to be a bunch of cracked up rabbits running around super fast
This does not nullify my argument tough.
D2 Whirlwind was slow, and skills can have fixed movement speed and teleporting abilities cooldowns.

I would like to expand the userbase of this game instead of limiting it.

Moreover in GD this would require skill tree point assignments instead of being free like in D3 and relatively free (some gear sockets in PoE), which would penalize the character.

Would you spend 10 points in increasing the speed of your "Whirlwind" from 80% to 120% (you can walk faster than this) or reducing the cooldown of your teleport to 3 seconds from 5 and cripple your damage of other skills by doing that?

GD is the best game in the genre to have them, but unfortunately doesn't.

Last edited by marsovac; 06-12-2018 at 07:20 PM.
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