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Old 12-10-2013, 11:20 AM
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Indeed. Can't understand how people will have a hard time with most of the quests. And wasn't it so that those who want to explore get rewarded for it and those who don't...well...don't. Now that everyone knows where everything will be it becomes rather redundant.

-Hart is pretty much next to the road so you don't have to explore (much) for it.
-The scrap is all over the place so a more detailed description in the quest log should be sufficient. Same for killing the zombie soldiers/mutants.
-The cultist note is on the main road as well. Take Burwitch village Rift Gate. Go 5 steps north, first building on the right has it. Anyone who even remotely clears the areas on the main course will find it.
-The assistant could be a problem since there are tons of underground cellars and basins to explore. But the one where she hides is once again on the main route. You have to go over a bridge. First building on the left has the assistant. And you need to go through that building to get past the blockade on the street to get to the house that gets you to the Warden's Basement.

As for the cook, merchant and various additional caves with quest rewards should be for those who plan to explore and stumble upon them by themselves. No need for a quest marker to pop up as soon as you find that dead horse on the road.
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2013, 11:56 AM
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Awesome! Developer interviews are always fun to watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibly View Post
Indeed. Can't understand how people will have a hard time with most of the quests. And wasn't it so that those who want to explore get rewarded for it and those who don't...well...don't. Now that everyone knows where everything will be it becomes rather redundant.

-Hart is pretty much next to the road so you don't have to explore (much) for it.
-The scrap is all over the place so a more detailed description in the quest log should be sufficient. Same for killing the zombie soldiers/mutants.
-The cultist note is on the main road as well. Take Burwitch village Rift Gate. Go 5 steps north, first building on the right has it. Anyone who even remotely clears the areas on the main course will find it.
-The assistant could be a problem since there are tons of underground cellars and basins to explore. But the one where she hides is once again on the main route. You have to go over a bridge. First building on the left has the assistant. And you need to go through that building to get past the blockade on the street to get to the house that gets you to the Warden's Basement.

As for the cook, merchant and various additional caves with quest rewards should be for those who plan to explore and stumble upon them by themselves. No need for a quest marker to pop up as soon as you find that dead horse on the road.
Agreed. In addition, this thread's poll results suggests that quest markers are, for the most part, arbitrary.

It's my personal opinion that quest markers are detrimental to Grim Dawn (and to video games in general - they're a crutch for bad quest design - which is why GD doesn't need them; GD's quests are generally well-designed).
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  #13  
Old 12-10-2013, 12:12 PM
matthewfarmery matthewfarmery is offline
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the other issue is, in RPS interview with med, med himself said,

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showp...87&postcount=1

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While the casual market is certainly large, the hardcore gaming audience has also grown tremendously over recent years. As the heavyweights of the industry move to grab a piece of the massive casual market I think this creates an opportunity for a smaller company like us. I believe many in the more traditional, core gaming audience are starting to become frustrated with the changes they’re seeing to their most beloved games. They say you can’t please all of the people all of the time and I think this is certainly true. Our belief is that we can perhaps better please some of the people most of the time by catering Grim Dawn more closely to the desires of that traditional, core audience (and ourselves).

So yeah, what are we doing that is unique? Moving backwards some might say…
I dont think adding quest markers is moving the game backwards, as it's adding in a feature that is aimed for the casual market, the very market crate were suppose to be ignoring. quest markers are a more modern design, because its aimed at people who don't really have the time to explore or find things out for themselves,

sure many games do have them, but why are they in the first place? and does having them in continue to make GD a traditional ARPG? as I think not.
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  #14  
Old 12-10-2013, 12:45 PM
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I think there is too much fuss about quest markers. If you have a precise spot to go to then why not having it marked on your map? If you have to search for something or someone then you will have to explore. It's that simple.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeilua View Post
Agreed. In addition, this thread's poll results suggests that quest markers are, for the most part, arbitrary.
How do you figure that 52% of the polled users is arbitrary?

I'm glad you think our quests are well designed, but I don't think quest markers are a crutch for poor design. Skyrim uses very explicit quest markers/guides, but I've found their quest directions/dialogue to be very well executed.


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Originally Posted by matthewfarmery View Post
sure many games do have them, but why are they in the first place? and does having them in continue to make GD a traditional ARPG? as I think not.
If frustration for a large portion of the player base is a feature of "traditional" ARPGs, then I am glad we're steering away from it in that regard.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:13 PM
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How do you reach the conclusion of 52%?

I see:
-47,98% that has no problem with the current quests.
-30.81% that had no real issues with it either. other then the expected
-18.18% had clear trouble
-3.03% that got frustrated

From those number a clear 78% is ok with how things currently are. In that light those who do have issues are arbitrary.

Still I just hope a few quests get better descriptions to show people are on the right track. Maybe a few general markers here and there. But stuff that really makes you go off road and explore should have no quest markers or such. It would kind of defeat the purpose of exploring if you know exactly where to go.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:16 PM
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"I initially missed some quest objectives but had no trouble finding them later" represents ~31% of users. That is not "I had no difficulty". What exactly defines "expected" difficulty?

It's evident though that this group is going to be shifted around in the data depending on opinion on the matter.

EDIT: Also not sure how even 21% is an irrelevant portion. We're not going for a 51% majority to be president, this is videogames, this is serious!
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2013, 01:24 PM
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To me expected difficulty means that you won't get things straight away on the first try. You make mistakes, you overlook things, you experiment with skills that end up gimping your character later on and causing you to re-start. So if people won't find a quest on the first go and still succeed a bit later that's ok. I'd only look at why they missed it on the first go and if there is some streamlining to be done. In this case being more descriptive and informative should fix most, if not all, issues. No need for tacky quest markers. Those should be the last resort if all else fails in my opinion.
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:46 PM
matthewfarmery matthewfarmery is offline
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Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
How do you figure that 52% of the polled users is arbitrary?

I'm glad you think our quests are well designed, but I don't think quest markers are a crutch for poor design. Skyrim uses very explicit quest markers/guides, but I've found their quest directions/dialogue to be very well executed.




If frustration for a large portion of the player base is a feature of "traditional" ARPGs, then I am glad we're steering away from it in that regard.
sorry what? take for example Diablo 2, what would be frustrating there? the quests are generally easy (at least if you are on normal) voice acting tells you what to do, and you can consider it as a traditional ARPG, yes? what part of that game would frustrate people? the difficulty? the ancients on nightmare or above) the fact that the quest log is pretty basic, or perhaps because some quests do hold in a area until you complete them, but not all ARPGs do that anyway, but to me, traditional ARPG is more in line with not having features like quest markers which are a relative new thing, but trying to keep to the older values of gaming, if something frustrates players, then its might be something to do with the game itself, either the quest isn't explained well enough, or the directions aren't clear (looking at you morrowind)

but with the later games, they just added in a lot of hand holding, which completely spoiled the game,

I'm sorry Zantai, but your quote to me doesn't really make much sense, on top of the fact,, ARPGs are in general one of the easier games types to play, sure RPGs like the BG series, IWD, those would be a lot more challenging, with a lot more tactics, something that ARPGD don't do. yes there can be some tactics, but if anything, even the bosses in GD are pretty much a push over. so how is moving away from a traditional games a bad thing? and if the polls are anything to go by, many are fine with the quests and the difficulty of GD in general. perhaps you could explain a bit more by what you meant by that?
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
"I initially missed some quest objectives but had no trouble finding them later" represents ~31% of users. That is not "I had no difficulty". What exactly defines "expected" difficulty?
It would also be interesting to know if they think the quest they had initially trouble with would still give them trouble now, if they were to do it for the first time.

Mostly that one seems to be the apprentice and I know that both the description changed (it now says Burrwich Estates, narrowing it down to two cellars with three entrances, two of which lead to the apprentice) whereas before it said Burrwich Village which was factually wrong and also has more cellars.

Add to that that the apprentice was bugged and didn't always spawn / spawn in the right location and the one quest that came up the most has improved a lot since the first time simply from fixing a bug and its description...

I voted no issues because of this, as I considered the change and not just my experience the first time around where I ended up checking every cellar in all of Burrwich twice, only to find it did not spawn

Also, there are some people you cannot please, one complained about getting that quest so early on as he still was far from that location. I doubt there is anything reasonable you can do about that, so there will always be some people that vote 4 simply because of things like that
Quote:
It's evident though that this group is going to be shifted around in the data depending on opinion on the matter.
Definitely true

Quote:
EDIT: Also not sure how even 21% is an irrelevant portion. We're not going for a 51% majority to be president, this is videogames, this is serious!
I have no issue with quest markers

Everyone who clears the area will find everything anyway, and since the world is mostly static, everyone will know where to find everything very soon anyway.

I believe that caves that spawn in a random location (like Gutworms) are not shown on the map, would be nice to have a marker once you found it though (for this session only)

Last edited by mamba; 12-10-2013 at 02:54 PM.
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