#11  
Old 11-08-2013, 10:19 AM
matthewfarmery matthewfarmery is offline
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I posted a reply to that guy I quoted, he replied and stated this
Quote:
DatonKallandor says:

Communities don’t know how to make fun games. If they did they’d be making them. Iron Lore on the other hand has shown that they perfectly understand how to make a great ARPG with Titan Quest. They don’t NEED idiotic community input because, unless they’ve all been hit on the head a lot since Titan Quest, they already know what to do.

All the constant deference to the “community” is doing is hurting the game they’re building. This is painfully clear when you see them asking questions on their forums that they are perfectly capable of answering for themselves. “Should we make gold pick-up automatically as you run over it? Should it be picked up in an AoE or only when run right over it?” Of course you fucking should make it pick up in an AoE automatically. You don’t ask some bozos on a forum who consider themselves hardcore that because they’ll say that should have to click for everything – twice.

Not only is your forum community going to be wrong, they’re also the minority of players. Or at the very least you pray to god they’re the minority of players because you won’t even break even on your costs to develop if they are. There’s two reasons right there why you don’t listen to them.
don't agree to him at all.
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2013, 10:47 AM
randomspawn randomspawn is offline
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How can you agree? I will say this here, I don't know if you will understand me fully, but here goes.

I like it very much when a creator asks the audience about preferences. It's not like they don't know what to do, it is like they can do A and/or B, and come up to you and say: "What would you prefer?" It is amateurish, but in the meaning amateur has in my language. Lover of art.

It is professional and ok for a cook to bring you a ready dish. He knows how to make a fine fine dish. But it is something more for him to come to you and ask if you would like him to do something else on yours.

It is professional and common for a composer to write something and then give out the parts. It is something more when a composer asks the 1st trumpet if that Hiiiigh F# is easy/doable/preffered while writing, so he can work around the problem and have everyone happy, and a better composition.

If you know your art you can be flexible, and cater to most people's need while being practical. But it seems there is a point that the receiver/consumer/client disconnects, expecting the professional to take full responsibility of the creation. And this is mass production where the professional is deaf and the consumer blind.
  #13  
Old 11-08-2013, 10:50 AM
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DatonKallandor fits right in with Blizzard then when it comes to them telling the community what is fun and what isn't fun.
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  #14  
Old 11-08-2013, 11:24 AM
matthewfarmery matthewfarmery is offline
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Originally Posted by DeMasked View Post
DatonKallandor fits right in with Blizzard then when it comes to them telling the community what is fun and what isn't fun.
maybe he should get a job there, or better yet becoming the next lead dev of their next game or community manager, and start saying, this is how the game is going to be if you like it or not, (even though blizzard has been doing that for a while now) one of the biggest letdowns, as blizzard clearly lost their way when they shut down blizzard north. on top of that the changes they made to WOW, and losing many of their original players in favour of those from china, (I know a friend who doesn't play it anymore because of the changes and battling with blizzard over his account)


if there is one company that has lost it's way and made crap games as a result, its blizzard,

so yeah, that guy I quoted hasn't got a clue what he talking about, we need more studios to listen to their communities, it does help to make games more flexible, but I also have full trust in what Crate are doing, they are pros, a good example of a studio that messed up big time and alienating its community is Aurofinity & Dreamatrix who made Legend of Dawn, they didn't bother to reply to anyone on their forums, they didn't bother to really say much or update their project much, apart from adding voice overs, adding achievements, something that quite a few objected too, but then again, that would have cost them money, and with their utterly atrocious steam release, (and backers didn't know it was on steam until one found it) and the wait for keys) they completely ignored the community, they must have realised that the game was going to be a bad, I still don't understand what they didnt put it on early access.

but then again, the guy who is doing Frontiers, he also getting the community involved in helping to shape the game, he recently added a botanist kit, so those that have pledged at the correct level, can add their own plants, (with some different effects) also there are many story tellers making stories of sorts, (I'm making some) how is that a bad thing? and is that any different to what Crate are doing? no, I dont see any difference, and also the wasteland 2 game, the too has the devs listening to feedback, including when using the radio to communicate, they never say "over" and that is real, so the devs changed that, and a number of other stuff because of the community, the devs are still on course to release an early beta for backers, and they also said that backers are willing to wait if needed, and the early beta will get a bit more polish until iits ready for the community to play, and they will provide feedback, again how is that any different to what crate are doing?
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  #15  
Old 11-08-2013, 11:26 AM
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Methinks DaytonKallandor protesteth too loudly.

I think it is brilliant that the Devs involve the community of supporters in non critical design decisions. When you play the game you can look at things and say that is in there because we asked for it to be that way. How many people can play through D3 and say that? Or even Titan Quest?

From what i know of medierra he has a very firm idea of how difficult he wants things to, he is trying to make the game accessible to at least 50% of the arpg loving community. He has no misconceptions about input from the hard core minority, everything is weighted in the balance of Crates own vision of what they want the game to be.
That does not mean that there is no room for hardcore input but everything that comes across the anvil is tempered and hammered by Crate to forge their own design.


It makes sense to me for a developer to get freed back from a whole cross section of their community from ultra hard core, if any are present, to casual weekend gamers. They can then make an informed decision about how best to balance there game. They may choose to completely disregard our opinions, or they may discern a shred of collective wisdom that will improve the overall experience. However to completely block your ears to the voices of those you are seeking to engage does not exhibit the wisdom of an astute mind.
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Last edited by sunandsteel71; 11-08-2013 at 11:39 AM.
  #16  
Old 11-08-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomspawn View Post
How can you agree? I will say this here, I don't know if you will understand me fully, but here goes.

I like it very much when a creator asks the audience about preferences. It's not like they don't know what to do, it is like they can do A and/or B, and come up to you and say: "What would you prefer?" It is amateurish, but in the meaning amateur has in my language. Lover of art.

It is professional and ok for a cook to bring you a ready dish. He knows how to make a fine fine dish. But it is something more for him to come to you and ask if you would like him to do something else on yours.

It is professional and common for a composer to write something and then give out the parts. It is something more when a composer asks the 1st trumpet if that Hiiiigh F# is easy/doable/preffered while writing, so he can work around the problem and have everyone happy, and a better composition.

If you know your art you can be flexible, and cater to most people's need while being practical. But it seems there is a point that the receiver/consumer/client disconnects, expecting the professional to take full responsibility of the creation. And this is mass production where the professional is deaf and the consumer blind.
Yes, exactly. We all saw a GREAT examples this year when a developer basically ignores their community and tells them to just put up and BUY what they think is great for them with the release of D3 and the XBOX:One.
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2013, 11:38 AM
randomspawn randomspawn is offline
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Yes, isn't that what "professional" means nowadays. You sit tight. I make. You buy. You don't like. Buy from next studio. You don't like. Buy next.

This allows for financial sustainability. So that they can make more things you don't like. But on the other hand, would one be willing to bear the extra cost of buying something built "to their order"? This community shouts "Yeeeeaaaaah!". Other people say "No way I'm lining your pockets."

But the cost is not only money. It is waiting, being patient, understanding, redetermining expectations. Not all find this to be their cup of tea. I pay, I consume, I rejoice. What?
  #18  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewfarmery View Post
I posted a reply to that guy I quoted, he replied and stated this


don't agree to him at all.
Yeah, DaytonKallandor is probably the same guy bitching on other game forums that the devs never listen to the community...in other words, he probably frequents the D3 forums.
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:39 PM
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Marney Marney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewfarmery View Post
don't agree to him at all.
I don't agree with him either, but this was pretty funny: "Of course you fucking should make it pick up in an AoE automatically. You don’t ask some bozos on a forum who consider themselves hardcore that because they’ll say that should have to click for everything – twice."

lol. Admit it, we do all know players like that.

Of course, what makes it inadvertently funny is that the community he despises so much agreed with him.
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