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  #21  
Old 04-29-2016, 03:10 PM
Quique Quique is offline
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Thanks for replying Adoomgod.

Just a few remarks, though:

I will, most likely, be using your mod. It sounds amazing and I agree the game can use some more polishing and balancing. My questions could have sounded a bit crude (I apologize if that was the case), but I thought them to be very pertinent in light of Crate's continuing support of their game. "Silly question" is debatable: Some mods that fix bugs and improve the game at the core (especially when the owner won't do it anymore), I consider needed. YMMV, of course.

Anyway, good luck with your project. I will be following it closely.

Cheers!
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  #22  
Old 04-29-2016, 03:23 PM
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adoomgod adoomgod is offline
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Thanks^ and happy to respond. I'll say straight up that neither me nor Ceno plan on being as diplomatic as Crate.

But in that particular case I was calling the question silly only because of the concept of "need". I understand that you feel it's needed, and actually respect that view. I was simply pointing out that what you, or I, or anyone feel is "needed" is not needed on a universal scale.

I'm a very opinionated person and very blunt, but I try to be specific with my words. I may personally believe that certain word choices are silly, but that does not mean I am belittling you as a person, or discarding your desires for the game.

I actually do apologize here if that came off as condescending though. I didn't mean silly in that way. I say stuff people consider silly all the time, it's not a right/wrong or good/bad kind of thing. So it wasn't that I disagreed with what you want, it was the way you expressed it I found disagreeable.

If anything I'm elated to hear that we'll potentially be providing a service you have a hunger for (extensive balance support).

Also, I admittedly did misread the tone of your question. That's on me. Glad to have your interest, I will do my best to keep it.
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Last edited by adoomgod; 04-29-2016 at 03:28 PM.
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  #23  
Old 04-29-2016, 03:55 PM
Ramiel Ramiel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adoomgod View Post
Yes, it's definitely doable. But reworking is a fun word that can me a couple things. Some reworks are more extensive or extreme than others. We could do all the stuff you listed but we also... aren't going to. Callidor's Tempest, for example, is fine. We will only do extensive reworks on skills we feel can't be made interesting and viable in ultimate via simple tweaks to their numbers. Most skills can be made viable with simple tweaks.
Right, I understand where you're coming from. I don't agree with everything you said (CT is NOT fine) but I am looking forward to this. Good luck with it.
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  #24  
Old 04-29-2016, 04:15 PM
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adoomgod adoomgod is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiel View Post
Right, I understand where you're coming from. I don't agree with everything you said (CT is NOT fine) but I am looking forward to this. Good luck with it.
No? I haven't played it since that self-found CT build was viable. What's wrong with it now?
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  #25  
Old 04-29-2016, 04:37 PM
Ramiel Ramiel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adoomgod View Post
No? I haven't played it since that self-found CT build was viable. What's wrong with it now?
It's not Callidor's Tempest, it's Callidor Aether Nova at best. Lightning Nova is the exact same skill, without requiring 16 points invested in it. Add to that Inferno, which is basically "add X more dmg" and the skill is just a bland, uninspired version of Lightning Nova. And it sure as hell isn't a Tempest, as its name suggests.

Now, it's not a bad skill. It has great dmg, scales with weapon dmg and utterly wrecks everything but thematically it's horrible.

"Callidor perfected a technique which, by creating a sudden concentrated burst of raw aether energy, would ignite the air around him in an arcane tempest" is the description. What I imagine happens is he creates an aether version of Squall's Lightning Storm that moves with him and zaps everything below it with aether energy. Inferno could be changed to add more fire dmg to the spell and there you go, a real arcane Tempest. Again, I'm not talking about the viability of the skill in question, just pointing out that how the skill is envisioned doesn't translate to gameplay that well.

But anyway, I imagine this is beyond the scope of a rebalance mod and I should probably learn to do it myself, it is my vision after all. I'm gonna stop derailing the thread now.
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  #26  
Old 04-29-2016, 05:58 PM
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Paavo Paavo is offline
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Doom Bolt - 100% chance on hit to summon a Doom Spectre: player damage bonus pet, casts chaos bolt and vit nova.
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  #27  
Old 04-29-2016, 06:01 PM
LucidityOfPower LucidityOfPower is offline
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Ohh, man, sounds like an exciting project. I would love to play this and will follow this project. Best of luck, guys!

Last edited by LucidityOfPower; 04-29-2016 at 06:04 PM.
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  #28  
Old 04-29-2016, 06:13 PM
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adoomgod adoomgod is offline
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Originally Posted by Paavo View Post
Doom Bolt - 100% chance on hit to summon a Doom Spectre: player damage bonus pet, casts chaos bolt and vit nova.
This would be cool but it sort of diverges even harsher from the skill. It's a doom bolt not doom summon.

I like the idea though and fun trumps logic.

Compromise: It summons a player damage bonus pet that doesn't show up on your pet list and is stationary. Like a thermite mine. It has a chance to spawn on enemy death and it looks like a mini chthonic rift that spews out chaos bolt projectiles for a while.

But yeah we're thinking something along the lines that gives doom bolt the ability to be more single target oriented than devastation, but still have something to offer against mobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiel View Post
But anyway, I imagine this is beyond the scope of a rebalance mod and I should probably learn to do it myself, it is my vision after all. I'm gonna stop derailing the thread now.
Yup, sorry, not exactly what we're looking to solve. Guys, this is the thread to start giving feedback about your grievances with balance related things to the game in ANY way, shape or form. For me personally, I'm specifically looking for feedback on which skills you think are absolute shit, and detailed explanations and comparisons that show why, as well as skills you just think are under par. Anything in between really. If any of your are hoping for a specific skill to get looked at, and for that to potentially show up in our first release (whenever that is) then this is the thread to comment about it in.
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Last edited by adoomgod; 04-29-2016 at 06:18 PM.
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2016, 06:40 PM
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Cryodacry Cryodacry is offline
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Ceno, I appreciate what you are doing here.

I worry that Crate will be tossing huge wrenches into your plans when they them selves do re-balancing passes. Until we can get a "version control" aspect of the client we will not be able to balance the game as we see fit. I completely agree with you on many aspects of the game being un-playable / broken due to the required stat walls that every charicter must put up. If you need a tester of the mod i'll help when i can as time permits.

Thanks again for doing this.

Cryo
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  #30  
Old 04-29-2016, 06:53 PM
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Ceno Ceno is offline
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Thanks for the support everyone!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiel View Post
(CT is NOT fine)
CT has long irked me.

(post from January)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceno View Post
Give Callidor's Tempest a scaling radius. In the early days of the Arcanist mastery, when CT was all the rage, I thought I was missing something. I hated the skill then, as it was so tedious to me to have a melee-range caster skill of only moderate effectiveness. Today, with OFF + PRM + TSS + literally everything else in Arcanist being reworked, Callidor's Tempest seems to have really fallen off the grid. The only time I see it being used in Ultimate is at one point in the base skill and one point in the transmuter for the CC. So I'd like to suggest to see the radius scale to make the skill that much more effective and encourage better investment. I'd personally recommend copying the exact scaling of Veil of Shadow: 3 meters at rank 1, 6 meters at max sub-ultimate rank. Some damage boosts and maybe even a slight knockdown chance on the base skill itself might go a long way toward making Callidor's Tempest popular again, and appealing to me for the first time ever.
(These changes went through (potentially verbatim) and lo and behold, Most's Callidor's Tempest build is kicking ass. But it still feels monotonous to me, albeit to a lesser extent because of the increase radius.)

As a preliminary thought, I don't think I want to completely rework the mechanics of the base skill very much. I think it can be quite fun, actually. Inferno needs a numbers buff, though. Where I think there's room for rework is with Wrath of Agrivix. There I think we could diverge a little from the initial design. WoA is primarily taken for the knockdown chance (I'm guilty of this), one pointing it and CT and foregoing any further investment. I haven't seen a WoA build that is actually meant to do damage since transmuters/Arcanists (I forget which came second) were released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregory_portman View Post
Q: Do you have any experience in moding from other games, etc?
I've made content for basically every Unreal Tournament, and have touched Doom a bit. I haven't ever touched an ARPG's mod tools, though, which is ironic since its my most-played genre. Aside from that experience, I'm a Computer Scientist by day anyways, so now I get to be a heromodder by night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minandreas View Post
Very intriguing. If I might make a suggestion, you may actually want to approach the monster difficulty increase through mechanic's first. Because depending on what you find you can do, and to what extent you can do it, it could make a huge impact on skill balance.

You might take a bunch of time balancing skills and such just to undo that work by changing what they are balanced against. The monsters.
This is definitely true...but so's the opposite. We could tone down/tone up some monsters and then make skills suit their difficulty. But chances are we'd still need to re-tone some monsters afterward.

Looking at it broadly, I feel like there's a lot of monsters that are presently 'OK' (albeit with maybe too high DA, but we'll get to that). Every basic Aetherial Zombie in the world doesn't need to be mechanically different or have its very-few stats touched upon extensively. But there's a lot of skills and items and Devotions that simply aren't being used at all, and we can kind of see why. So we want to make them usable, then tone back the statwall (OA/DA/Resists/Health) of monsters, and then do any final tweaks to skills necessary (which will probably focus on debuffs or high-damage nukes). This seems like a lot of changes, but I feel as though its fewer changes than we'd need to do if we tweaked monsters first.
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