#11  
Old 03-24-2012, 05:56 AM
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Roryn Roryn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
Not only is it quite possible to get surrounded and beaten to death by zombies outside the starting town but you can get stunned, frozen, slowed, set on fire, end up in a room covered with deadly acid spatters, etc, all in the first hour of playing.
Lovely!


For me, fun = difficulty. In a single player game, i only have fun when i'm in difficulty situations, when i have to think before taking an action, and if i do wrong i get pennalized in the future.

I just bought Persona - Innocent Sin, and from the first to fourth dungeon the enemies were doing only 1 damage to my characters! And I didnt even upgraded their equipment.

Persona is a great RPG game, wonderfull story too, but when there is no difficulty in battles, it just become a tedius action thoughout the game, and the only motivation for me to continue playing was the story, as battles were just pressing triangle to auto-attack.

I went to internet to see if the dungeons get more harder and came to an article that said that the game was tunned down for casual players. This broke the game for me.

The only time in games when i have fun with something that is not hard to accomplish is when playing a competitive mode, like mario party games, etc. Then, hard or easy, you are competing with someone, and it's always fun.
  #12  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:55 AM
Vatticson Vatticson is offline
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Hello! Im new to this forum.

Just registered to answer this thread ^^.

I agree there are a lot of casual gaming out there, and a few "hardcore" ones. I enjoy both sometimes.

Its also true there are some games which have an "enough-easy" mode for casuals and another mode for experimented players (see Guitar Hero, Ninja Gaiden´s "ninja-dog" difficulty and master ninja, etc...).

I like Diablo style games, but im not liking Diablo 2 anymore, or Greed or even Titan Quest. Why? Because the starting difficulty is "normal" (a bit easy). Im liking the system of Torchlight for example: Having the option to choose Insane difficulty even at level 1, or Easy mode if you want.

Also, Greed has a checkpoint system which ruins the entire game for me (if a boss kills you, you are inmediately respawned at the entrance of his room without any downside, wth?).

When I began playing Titan Quest, at first i was impressed because you had 10 different classes and could mix 2 of them, but later it became boring for me because i didn´t felt the skills where as meaningful as others.

Well, there are a lot of indies out there which gives challenging games, but im also seeing casual indies (Minecraft) and its a good thing. Some indies are transforming into "not-so-indies"

See ya!
  #13  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:49 PM
Slikless Slikless is offline
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challenge and complexity
Yes please

Quote:
I mean, players might go in the wrong direction and not know how to look at the map!
I never understood this argument... just give them a visual hint of the general direction, i.e. a clear pathway, a paved street and constantly remember them that if they walk off they could get lost...

Quote:
You can't get killed while trying to water your corn in FarmVille, you basically just get congratulated for doing what you were told.
That's exactly this stupid "if you participate you already won" and "in this game there won't be a winner, we all are winners" mentality of today's society...

Quote:
but you can get stunned, frozen, slowed, set on fire, end up in a room covered with deadly acid spatters, etc, all in the first hour of playing.
I now expect some kind of rare boss that does all that :P

Quote:
I consider myself to a fairly hardcore gamer who loves challenge and enjoys intuitively conveyed, complex mechanics but I have a very low tolerance for tedium and unnecessary bullshit. I don't want to spend my time in a game clicking unnecessarily on the UI, repeating monotonous steps that are neither challenging nor enjoyable, learning through trial and error, or struggling to figure out things that are just poorly conveyed.
You just made me support this game financially. Good job sir! Can't wait to see the outcome of all this
  #14  
Old 04-16-2012, 01:26 PM
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zidders zidders is offline
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http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...aptastiroo.jpg

I know I know, I fail at art. Still, awesome op post is awesome.

Last edited by zidders; 04-16-2012 at 01:30 PM.
  #15  
Old 04-17-2012, 04:47 AM
TECHNOmancer TECHNOmancer is offline
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
To me though, what makes a game hardcore is challenge and complexity, not pointless tedium and lack of reward.
I quote only this point for specific emphasis but agree with the entirety of the original post.

I CANNOT AGREE MORE (MOAR?!).

I've never labeled myself as a hardocore gamer, although I beat the original Metroid over 200 times. I suppose that gamers half my age have never had the pleasure of playing it without cheats, save states, etc. But I digress. . . . The sad reality is that the market has changed so much in a concerted effort to target casual gamers that I would be branded a hardcore gamer by default.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an ardent defender of capitalism. Still, it's an imperfect system -- anything man-made is. What I find increasingly frustrating is the simple fact that a given product, such as a game, is less frequently marketed based on its own merits (complexity, originality, difficulty, etc.). Instead, it's an exercise in capturing an audience and then rent-seeking by dumbing down the product to match that audience's expectations. Have we, as consumers, really become so herd-like in our mentality and willingness to shell out money for simple pleasures/experiences that capture our attention for a moment but do nothing to challenge us?! For as much as I abhor my entertainment media approximating the tedium of work or other real-life tasks, I don't want to be treated as a mindless fool who is easily parted with his money.

Thank you, Crate, for having the integrity and intelligence to treat me -- and by extension your increasing fanbase -- as a knowledgable consumer who eagerly awaits the release of Grim Dawn because it IS NOT dumbed down for the masses. Put another way, while I appreciate the revenue that results from the design behind FarmVille, I'm glad that you're striving for something more complex even if it doesn't immediately lead to the same profit-producing scale.

/endsermonizing

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Last edited by TECHNOmancer; 04-17-2012 at 05:10 AM.
  #16  
Old 04-17-2012, 06:55 PM
Timobkg Timobkg is offline
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Hi, I'm an ARPG fan who played Titan Quest, and wishes Grim Dawn success.

Am I a casual player? I repeatedly beat Mega Man 2 back in the day, I spent 4 years as the leader of a 3-night-a-week WoW raid guild that finished all the content in BC, and I enjoyed Demon's Souls (at least after the first few hours), and yet I play my games on "normal", and loved that dying in FF13 caused you to restart right before the battle that killed you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
When I was working on Titan Quest, our project manager at THQ said that he thought stun damage was too unfriendly for casual players and that no enemies should stun on normal difficulty. Not only is it quite possible to get surrounded and beaten to death by zombies outside the starting town but you can get stunned, frozen, slowed, set on fire, end up in a room covered with deadly acid spatters, etc, all in the first hour of playing.
The problem with stuns is that they take control away from the player. You can't react or do anything to make up for your mistake, you just have to wait for the stun to go away, assuming you live that long. Games give players power, and stuns take all of it away, which is why it's such a frustrating mechanic.

If I'm stun-locked until I'm beaten to death, I just sit there, powerless, watching myself die. It's like an insta-kill, only drawn out to make you suffer. Ever played a board game where everyone teams up against you, and you spend turn after turn not able to do anything? It's not any more fun in a video game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra
I consider myself to a fairly hardcore gamer who loves challenge and enjoys intuitively conveyed, complex mechanics but I have a very low tolerance for tedium and unnecessary bullshit. I don't want to spend my time in a game clicking unnecessarily on the UI, repeating monotonous steps that are neither challenging nor enjoyable, learning through trial and error, or struggling to figure out things that are just poorly conveyed.
I agree. Those old school games that forced you to restart from the beginning when you died? That was the epitome of repeating monotonous steps to get to the challenge, and I'm glad we largely went away from that style of design.

If I keep dying on a boss, let me restart at the boss. Don't make me re-clear 20 minutes of trash just to get to the boss, as that's not a challenge. I know I can clear the trash, so don't waste my time.

And Titan's Quest skills are an example of complex, un-intuitive, poorly conveyed systems that required trial and error (or reading the forums) to figure out. Skills I thought sounded terrible ended up being awesome, and visa versa. Likewise, the item bonus properties were overly complex and not intuitive (+fire damage adds to this attack, but not to that attack?).

Simplifying a game can make it better, and make complex mechanics accessible. Do we really need run speed, attack speed, casting speed, total speed, and -recharge? Couldn't casting speed be merged into attack speed, making it more intuitive? Couldn't the total speed modifier be replaced by a modifier granting both attack speed and run speed, again making it more intuitive? Wouldn't "reduce cooldowns by X" make more sense than "-x% recharge"?

I would hope these things get fixed in Grim Dawn, and that the quest for old school, hardcore, and challenging doesn't overshadow that good games are also player friendly, and that these two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
  #17  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:24 PM
wizardz wizardz is offline
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man i wish my english was that good so i could write long detailed posts like all you guys, but no i'm just a french guy from Quebec.

am i old school? i like to think i am. i played X-Com : Enemy Unknown for about a thousand hours...Syndicate (the real one, not the shooter) and the likes. i never actually owned a console except lately an xbox 360.

as for the unevitable question about being hardcore or casual. i think the biggest question is really; what defines being hardcore? it depends,

someone can say "oh man you reached lvl 219 at game X, you're hardcore!", but using the word "hardcore" to define a group of gamers i think is the wrong term. i'm trying to think of a more "proper" term but i can't.

i played Eve Online and i ENJOYED it..am i hardcore?
  #18  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizardz View Post
i played Eve Online and i ENJOYED it..am i hardcore?
No, you're just nuts. =P

My definition of hardcore is the willingness to take risks or accept a challenge. Simple as that.

If there are no risks (like Diablo 3 on normal), everyone succeeds automatically.
Hardcore players can not find a challenge (maybe besides playing nekkid) so the game is boring.

Years ago I was as hardcore as it gets, by just about any definition. Playing Everquest (a decidedly unforgiving game) for years in the servers top raid guild. Always on the limit.
Nowadays I don't have the time for that any more. I'm a casual gamer and I play... to play.
Winning a game isn't even a factor any more. If I enjoy playing, I win. Always.


As long as there's a freely accessible dial for monster/loot level, everyone wins. You don't even need labels for the difficulty level.
Just one dial that lets the player reduce or increase the monster/loot levels in the game by x %.
If the top end is complete mind boggling insanity, so what? Who said that's winnable? And if someone ever figures out how to win that regardless, all the better. =P

Been beating your head against that boss for half an hour and you decide that it's time to move on?
Turn down the difficulty dial, save, load, win.
That's not any cheesier than reloading 100 times. It simply avoids pointless frustration.
  #19  
Old 05-21-2012, 08:56 AM
Roq Roq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
To court the casual audience, developers are simplifying game systems and minimizing the potential for inexperienced players to make bad choices. They’re reducing the amount of time it takes to finish games, adding a constant stream of visible rewards for increasingly simplified achievements, and allowing players to pay for success when the effort of achieving it through the game proves too challenging or time consuming. We’ve come a long way from my childhood, where failure in most games caused you to start completely over from the beginning, to a point where it is impossible to fail in many games and in some you can just pull out your credit card when you decide it is time to win.
IMHOP most developers of single player games lean too heavily on the save game button. You can reverse any decision you make just by reloading the game - don't like the treasure chest loot you rolled? save before and load until you get the sword of awesomeness. And there is less tension in games such as Skyrim, because you can just reload if you make a mistake.

Perhaps going back to Wizardry 1 style would be a bit *too* retrogressive, but it did add greatly to the challenge and the tension when you have to try to get a dead party member back to the surface, knowing that your whole party could get wiped forever...
  #20  
Old 05-21-2012, 04:30 PM
Rolo42 Rolo42 is offline
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If you haven't seen Mike Judge's movie, Idiocracy, do so pronto; it's silly amusing and eerie prophetic.

To the 2012 definition of casual gamer: why not just dangle a set of shiny keys in front of them? It seems that would be entertaining enough! Seriously though, if the trophy generation doesn't want to utilise any grey matter whatsoever, there are plenty of [moronic] television shows they can watch and not have to actually do anything yet be entertained.

Hardcore was (and should still) mean those who looked under the hood and really scrutinised how a game worked; i.e. Figuring out that sacrificing aesthetics to ensure your frame rates in Quake 3 were as high as possible (over refresh rate even) not for the smoothness but so you could jump higher because of how the code was written. That's hardcore; merely allocating attribute points is not.

- Save button give us options: save frequently to avoid repeats or not; one style isn't imposed

- Skyrim was a disappointment for me also; I loved Oblivion but didn't even care to stick around Skyrim long enough to finish it

- I like stats, skills, attributes, trees, all that stuff. Building, tinkering, assembling and equipping my character and trying different things to see how it works is half the fun for me. (My wife, less so but that's what wikis and husbands are for.) Give me complexity or give me death!

I'd rather fail at something difficult then succeed at something easy.
- Jesse James

Last edited by Rolo42; 05-21-2012 at 04:34 PM.
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