#1  
Old 06-18-2013, 10:57 PM
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Default [Skill] Military Conditioning - v0.1.7.2 (b11)

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Originally Posted by Rhis View Post
v0.1.6.3 (b10)
- Soldier: Increased health per level provided by the mastery training / decreased % health provided by Military Conditioning.
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Originally Posted by Zantai View Post
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Originally Posted by Daemos View Post
Also, with military conditioning, are we now at a point where it's almost always better to just ignore early on, (because you'd be better off just sticking those points in the soldier mastery?).
Feel free to start a discussion on this topic. Probably not best to carry it out in this thread as it may get buried.
So here is the dedicated thread. At level 1 you start with 50 physique and 250 health. Currently you receive 5 physique and 45 health for every point in the Soldier bar. For every point in the tier 2 Soldier skill Military Conditioning you receive about +2% physique and +4% health (but I used the exact values) - that is for the 12 normal levels. Not sure what it does on the 10 ultimate levels.

As long as you have not maxed out the mastery bar, it is interesting to know, where your points are spent better - in the bar or this skill. Hope, I got everything right.

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In the first row you see the total skill points, which you have to split between the bar and the skill. The left column has your skill level - the higher this level, the less points are left for the bar. Blue numbers are as reference, where you put all points into the bar. Red numbers indicate that putting points into the skill results in lower values. Green numbers indicate that the skill increases the value by at least 10%. If you have +% bonuses from other sources, then the results are even more disappointing. It's not included to this table, but flat bonuses favour the skill.
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
I also like the continuous element of decision making [the mastery bar] provides in the conflict between unlocking new skills or increasing your immediate power by investing in the skills you already have.
Although Military Conditioning is an early skill, there is hardly any benefit from investing in it in the beginning. Not to mention that investing into the bar also increases your other attributes and energy.

To make the skill more appealing you could either increase the +% bonuses. Or if that is not wanted, add flat bonuses to the early skills levels and intersperse other boosts on certain skills levels - e.g.: health regeneration and armour (both flat and +% bonuses). The latter would also help to make it stand out more from the benefits of the mastery bar. Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 06-19-2013, 01:13 AM
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Daemos Daemos is offline
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Thank you for doing this! I can't think of anything more to add at the moment.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:43 AM
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A simple solution: switch it's place in the mastery bar with Decorated Soldier or Scars of Battle. At a higher character level you can have gear with Physique on it, so then it's possible for the skill to give you a better return than extra mastery levels.

For reference, at ultimate level (22) you get +35% Physique and +75% Health.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:13 AM
Draug Draug is offline
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Here is another way of looking at it...



The first column is the desired level of Military Conditioning. The second and third columns are the minimum amounts of Physique and Health (before any percent boosts) that you need in order to gain more Physique and Health from the skill point than from the mastery. For example, before you take your first point in Military Conditioning, you should have (before percent boosts) at least 200 Physique and 1125 Health.
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:00 PM
Nihil Fit Nihil Fit is offline
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Thanks for working this out! Honestly, I'd recommendjust shifting the skill to something entirely different, since +%HP is about as bland as a bonus can get. (Why "bland"? Because it doesn't interact in interesting ways with other stats or build features.)

A few alternatives:
1. +DA, or more interesting, +DA *only* for the purposes of resisting crits (so it doesn't improve your dodge chance, just reduces spike damage).
2. +Resistance to the not-overtly-magical damage types (bleed, poison, maybe vitality) and a smaller +physical resist. Or reduced poison/bleed/stun duration.
3. %reduction to the timer before regen kicks in (this one could feel very dramatic once you've gotten used to the regular timer).
4. +% to the *armor* value (not the block limit) of shields, or of torso armor (only).

Any of these could yield more interesting build decisions, and more perceptible impact on gameplay, even at relatively modest skill levels.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:29 PM
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Pierce and Bleeding Resistances are already included to Decorated Soldier and Scars of Battle. Elemental Resistances are included to Veterancy and for other spirit based damage types you should look in other masteries.

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More DA and / more armour sound very worthwhile. But I think there might be a conflict in interests with a possible future mastery.
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
Yeah, it seems a lot of people loved the defense mastery. We'll definitely add something like that. Soldier is already sort of a mix of warfare / defense but in the future I'd like to have an even more defense / shield focused class. DUAL SHIELD WIELDING?!!
I think the big issue with Military Conditioning is that it overlaps with the mastery bar too much. I suggest to move +% Physique to Veterancy, which in return gives -% Shield Recovery Time and +% Shield Block to Military Conditioning.
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Old 06-23-2013, 05:06 PM
Nihil Fit Nihil Fit is offline
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I think part of the problem is that (as your screenshot demonstrates) so many of the Soldier passives just boil down to "a scattering of tiny defensive increases that collectively make you a bit tougher". Larger, more focused bonuses would give the Mastery a more distinctive feel. e.g. for Scars of Battle, instead of 4% to three resistances, why not 12% to Bleeding only? It's not like a high Bleed resist would be game-breaking -- and meanwhile you'd really feel the difference between enemies with and without Bleed. Feeling mighty against one damage type is more fun, and more interesting, than being moderately-tough against all.
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:43 PM
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Good point. But if you start with a big bonus how will the skill scale over 12 (respectively 8) normal and 10 ultimate levels? The solution would be to alternate between (some of) the bonuses.
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:25 PM
Nihil Fit Nihil Fit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eisprinzessin View Post
Good point. But if you start with a big bonus how will the skill scale over 12 (respectively 8) normal and 10 ultimate levels? The solution would be to alternate between (some of) the bonuses.
Actually, assuming that higher difficulty levels come with -resist as in TQ, I think this could work out fine. Going with the example of +12% Bleed, it would mean that a healthy investment in Normal could leave you near-immune to Bleed, but then you'd have to pump in more points on higher difficulties if you wanted to retain this.

As for the Ultimate levels, that's hard to say, but honestly the whole concept of 10 Ultimate levels seems like a design nightmare to me. Knowing the maximum values obtainable from a skill is crucial for design balance, but how do you think about that when there's a "normal" maximum and then a much higher "possible" maximum? How do you scale things so that the normal max feels powerful without the ultimate max becoming game-breaking?

I'm sure Crate have thought about this, but I think we just have to wait and see what they have in mind for the higher difficulties (and the means of getting +skill bonuses that high). Until then, I don't think there's much point in even thinking about balancing for the Ultimate levels.
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