Remove Stat Requirements From Gear.

[medierra]

Originally Posted by eisprinzessin

Thanx for the feedback. Things are more complex than they appeared first. I assume that this will remain unless you overhaul the whole system. Well, it's just a minor flaw, and you probably want to spend your resources on more essential things ... so, did you find anything useful in our other replies?

Yeah thats the thing, I'm not happy with requirement system as a whole and it probably could be reworked better but its just a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things. It is definitely more complex than it seems on the surface though, which is why to really make any great improvement I'd need to dedicate a fair amount of time to just sitting it down and thinking it all over. Even without changing the system though, I think it will be slightly better this time around just because its attempt #2.

It is always useful to get feedback and hear what the general consensus is among fans as a sort of "reality check" to make sure we're thinking in the right direction. I've also learned how important it is in development to generate lots of ideas even if the vast majority of them are bad or impractical. The saying "you've got to have money to make money" also seems very applicable to ideas. The more ideas you have flying around, the more it gets other people thinking of their own ideas. Can't tell you how many times in group brainstorming sessions Ive seen someone come up with an absolutely terrible idea but then that bad idea might have one aspect to it that gives someone else a brilliant idea.

[eisprinzessin]

Originally Posted by medierra

The more ideas you have flying around, the more it gets other people thinking of their own ideas. Can't tell you how many times in group brainstorming sessions Ive seen someone come up with an absolutely terrible idea but then that bad idea might have one aspect to it that gives someone else a brilliant idea.

Bad stuff makes people start thinking. Sometimes I'm tempted to post some shocking ideas here.

[Malpheas]

A thing with affixes, for consideration.

Take affixes, instead of having one rare affix of a single type, make three affixes of that rare type. They all do the same thing at different strengths. Just make level requirements for those.

[medierra]

Originally Posted by Malpheas

A thing with affixes, for consideration.

Take affixes, instead of having one rare affix of a single type, make three affixes of that rare type. They all do the same thing at different strengths. Just make level requirements for those.

The problem then is just trying to manage it all and sure it is set up correctly everywhere. Since we're short on designers we have to keep things simple.

I don't really see this as a huge problem but perhaps a better, easier to implement solution would be to have a level requirement on all items. The requirement would be low enough that players could still pump attributes to wear items above their own level but would eliminate the possibility of getting an uber item with high attribute requirements and an affix that gives it a ridiculously low level requirement.

[Scryer]

Originally Posted by medierra

First - holy shit?! Someone is agreeing with someone else over the internet? This is an obvious sign of the impending apocalypse. Gotta get this game done before 2012 for sure.

Yeah, I'm not as much as a hard liner for my ideas as when I first started posting on this site - I'm willing to see the other side of things. Also, I don't like getting people angry just for the heck of it. So here's my take on what you had to say. (Thanks for the post Medierra, your input always helps in these types of discussions.)

Originally Posted by medierra

The level restriction is a sort of balancing fail-safe in the event that certain items don't have attribute requirements or to put a reasonable limit how far ahead in items the player can get by twinking themselves with lots of +attribute gear and min / maxing their points. I think it could be less restrictive than it is on TQ though.

Good, I would like to see less restrictions, level requirements might be useful for more powerful equipment though say higher quality gear like Rare and Legendary equipment are limited by level, while lower quality gear is more limited by stats. What do you think?

Originally Posted by medierra

I will probably be apply / balancing requirements differently this time around. I don't feel like the way requires were set up in TQ was optimal. To some degree it is too much like what you're talking where mage stuff is all INT, melee stuff is mostly STR, archer gear is mainly DEX. There isn't much choice to be made there. It is just like "oh I'm a mage, guess all my points go into INT". At least, that's how it generally went if your build was more oriented toward one of the purer archetypes. It was bad for hybrid chars though because they got stuck having to divide points were pure classes didn't.

True, though in TQ a lot of gear required 2 different stats in order to use it, I think reducing the number of types of stat requirements would allow people to place their attribute points in other area's they'd prefer to have them.

Originally Posted by medierra

I haven't figured out exactly how I'm going to do it this time but my goal is to create more of a choice between offense / defense / utility for all classes. At the same time, I want to give different classes and hybrids more flexibility in terms of which weapon they use. To that end, level requirements may play more of a limiting roll while attributes may be more important in determining how effective you are with the weapon you equip.

Nice idea, actually I like that you want to make it easier for hybrids to obtain gear and be effective at what they try to do.

Originally Posted by medierra

One change that is almost definite is that I've divided OA and DA so they are no longer both increased by DEX. I'm not sure why exactly I did it that way on TQ but I was never quite happy with it. I'm not sure about this but my current thinking is that all weapons will use DEX either as a requirement and / or to be effective with them. All armor will require STR. Certain magical items like jewelry will require INT.

Interesting, though, I would probably suggest that Cunning increases weapon's effectiveness over having it as a stat requirement for the weapon. Weapons and spells are one of those most important factors, so players that don't always invest points here would do better to just be limited to the weapon's base damage vs actually limiting the player's choice of weaponry.

My reason for saying the above is that you don't want to break up stat requirements too much, and having Jewelry require Spirit and Armor require Physique, it gets a little foreboding to also ask the player to require Cunning for weapons they may need to be competitive later in the game. The current break up of jewelry and armor though, that is more then enough to keep the player interested.

Originally Posted by medierra

Oh... also STR, DEX, INT have different names all do slightly different things. I'm not really sure about this change yet or the new names, which better describe what each do now but sound a little awkward to me. Currently we have Cunning, Physique, and Spirit.

They sound fine to me, I'll try to post some suggestions but to be honest you made some good choices so far, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by medierra

My thought is that cunning describes your skill, training, and cleverness in combat both with physical weapons and magic. To that end it increases your damages, probability to hit, and critical hits.

I like this, and it would be cool if it also increased attack / cast speed (as been suggested). If you make this more of a, you invest and do more damage thing rather then a requirement for weapons, I think you can get away with that. Weapons could have level requirements and that to me, feels great. Especially if armor and jewelry will have stat requirements.

Originally Posted by medierra

Physique is your overall strength, dexterity, physical conditioning. It influences your ability to effectively wear heavier armor but also represents the agility with which you avoid attacks and being critically hit.

I think, I feel like this should increase base movement speed a little bit also, because as you get higher in your physical conditioning you would be able to move faster, this would turn a bland stat into a pretty fun stat, and if you ask me increasing movement speed is super fun.

Originally Posted by medierra

Spirit represents your energy and willpower. It allows you to wield more potent magical items and influences the rate at which you regain energy.

I like it, I like that it will increase your mana regeneration, but I think this stat should also increase the potency of "Power-up Orbs" that you find while playing, this will add a 3rd dynamic to the whole power-up orb business, and I think it would be fun. I feel like it should also increase your defense against magical attacks, this would be a nice thing to have.

Originally Posted by medierra

I'm also contemplating getting rid of the point allocation for both health and energy and then making it so that you gain a health bonus for every point in physique and an energy bonus for every point in spirit.

Yes, Yes! Please, I like this idea a lot, and it would probably help with balancing issues too, I think having Physique increase health (maybe even health regeneration) by a % and having Spirit increase energy and energy regain by a % would be absolutely awesome, much better then placing points in health or mana individually.

Originally Posted by medierra

Thoughts? Discuss...

What do you think Medierra? Am I crazy?

[mamba]

Originally Posted by eisprinzessin

Is a level 11-15 requirement supposed to prevent you from wearing items that drop in legendary? Here are some extreme samples from my collection. That's why I asked, if the level requirement will be removed.

The level requirement is based on the bonuses, the str/dex/int on the item itself. Your bonuses are not that great while the gear is high end, which is why the stat cannot be met unless you are a lot higher level than required.

For rings this would be different as they do not have stat requirements, so only the level prevents you from using rings with great bonuses right away.

[mamba]

Originally Posted by Malpheas

A thing with affixes, for consideration.

Take affixes, instead of having one rare affix of a single type, make three affixes of that rare type. They all do the same thing at different strengths. Just make level requirements for those.

They already had 4 or 5 affixes of different strengths in TQ

[medierra]

Originally Posted by Scryer

Good, I would like to see less restrictions, level requirements might be useful for more powerful equipment though say higher quality gear like Rare and Legendary equipment are limited by level, while lower quality gear is more limited by stats. What do you think?

I was actually going to say, it will probably be somewhat the opposite. There will probably be a class of basic gear were all you need to do to wear it is meet the level requirement. So for example, basic common armor would only have a level requirement but "heavy armor", would also have a physique requirement.

True, though in TQ a lot of gear required 2 different stats in order to use it, I think reducing the number of types of stat requirements would allow people to place their attribute points in other area's they'd prefer to have them.

I'm not certain of this yet but I don't think items will require 2 attributes. I certainly have no plans of anything like the DEX / STR requirement on swords and hunting weapons. I think if that happens it would only be the result of an item with an attribute requirement getting an affix that also had an attribute requirement.

Interesting, though, I would probably suggest that Cunning increases weapon's effectiveness over having it as a stat requirement for the weapon. Weapons and spells are one of those most important factors, so players that don't always invest points here would do better to just be limited to the weapon's base damage vs actually limiting the player's choice of weaponry.

My reason for saying the above is that you don't want to break up stat requirements too much, and having Jewelry require Spirit and Armor require Physique, it gets a little foreboding to also ask the player to require Cunning for weapons they may need to be competitive later in the game. The current break up of jewelry and armor though, that is more then enough to keep the player interested.

This is pretty much what I plan to do. In GD I'm moving away from the typical feeble staff / wand wielding caster image and towards a more badass image as a specialist soldier type. To that end, casters will wield either melee weapons or guns but there will be a left-hand item called a fulcrum that will function as a sort of supporting piece of gear similar to a shield for warrior, but probably more oriented towards boosting offensive power and energy.

So, in a way, I am doing some of what you're looking for in terms of offering people more options / flexibility. However, instead of allowing any character to do whatever they want at any time, I'm trying to give them more possible paths to choose from at the start but then still making some of those choices mutually exclusive to others so that there is a greater sense of meaning and commitment.

For the most part, weapons will probably be tied to attributes in a softer way, where there may not be a hard requirement to use them other than level for most, but you'll be ineffective with them if you don't have sufficient cunning.

I think, I feel like this should increase base movement speed a little bit also, because as you get higher in your physical conditioning you would be able to move faster, this would turn a bland stat into a pretty fun stat, and if you ask me increasing movement speed is super fun.

I've consider this before and it is tempting but I think it would be very difficult to control and it takes away another stat that is coveted on items. The less stats I have to apply to items, the more difficult it is to make a lot of unique equipment. In terms of control, there is only so much movement speed that the game can handle before it starts to drain performance and break gameplay (the faster you move the faster the game has to load assets). So if players can get speed from attributes, how much can they get? How much speed to they get per point? If you only get a tiny fraction of a percent per point, is the player even going to notice the change over time? Is it going to take 50 levels before they feel like they're really fast? Since, at that point, they can't just remove an item or turn off a spell to feel the difference, I think it will be hard to appreciate and thus, not very rewarding.

I like it, I like that it will increase your mana regeneration, but I think this stat should also increase the potency of "Power-up Orbs" that you find while playing, this will add a 3rd dynamic to the whole power-up orb business, and I think it would be fun. I feel like it should also increase your defense against magical attacks, this would be a nice thing to have.

Having it act like a amplifying of power orbs sounds cool. Although, again, we run into this problem of having to plan how modifiers stack up and affect different types of stats. So, it would be possible but we'd have to be careful about how we implemented these things.

What do you think Medierra? Am I crazy?

Crazy like a fox!

[ASYLUM101]

I remember one time I was modding TQ when I removed the movement speed limit, and made this cool artifact that gave a ton of neat attributes, one of which was 15% movement speed.

I didn't realize I entered it in the "CharacterMovement" field, rather than "CharacterMovementModifier", so I ended up with some ridiculously fast character that practically froze the game with his inane speed. (base speed was 1.2, 15x faster ?!)

[Kluga]

Originally Posted by medierra

This is pretty much what I plan to do. In GD I'm moving away from the typical feeble staff / wand wielding caster image and towards a more badass image as a specialist soldier type. To that end, casters will wield either melee weapons or guns but there will be a left-hand item called a fulcrum that will function as a sort of supporting piece of gear similar to a shield for warrior, but probably more oriented towards boosting offensive power and energy.

So, in a way, I am doing some of what you're looking for in terms of offering people more options / flexibility. However, instead of allowing any character to do whatever they want at any time, I'm trying to give them more possible paths to choose from at the start but then still making some of those choices mutually exclusive to others so that there is a greater sense of meaning and commitment.

Man, I was so happy when I read this part. Its great to hear that the caster will be moving away from the "classic" idea of a caster to a more hands on, battlemage type of concept. I never really played a pure caster in TQ because I found it got pretty tedious after a while. However I loved using magic classes as support for melee. That was great fun.

And that second paragraph pretty much nails my thoughts in terms of this whole thread. Removing stats requirements is just TOO much choice. I always thought of stats as just pushing you down a certain path. Of course in TQ it was pretty much melee, caster or hybrid. From what I've read and understood of your plans, I see a lot more potential for different and exciting builds in GD.