On "Farming"

[Detective]

I really enjoyed the Diablo 2 model of farming.

Anyone can beat normal difficulty with gear you find on your own with 1 play through: no problem.

After that, the difficulty ramps up significantly, but you could still beat the game on your own with no "farming". (farming, in my opinion = repeating areas that you have already completed trying to acquire additional x)

But if you wanted to get that cool gear, that awesome, fun, over-powered gear, you pretty much had to farm.

[Batou]

I read some of the replies, but not all of them. There were some points I didn't see anyone addressing, and the most pressing of them is the amount and degree of hand-holding implemented in the game. Artificial systems - like the one described in the opening post - are always a trade between immersion and coercion for me. On one hand you have the player trying to min/max a game character, and on another you have the developer pushing the player towards different in-game content.

For me this method of coercing the player is just as evil and pointless as the baby-level tutorials that modern big money games are riddled with. It's a crutch that you are forced to use when your game isn't good enough to stand on its own legs. I'm pretty happy to notice that the Crate people in this thread seemed to follow a similar idea: The best system is the one you never noticed.

It all boils down to whether or not the developer wants to dictate to the player how the game should be enjoyed. Easiest way to remove farming would be to stop the mobs from respawning and/or stop the player from revisiting earlier areas. Is there anyone here who really wants a game like that? If we allow those to take place, the game will feature farming, and since Grim Dawn seems to follow the ideas of the ARPG genre it means farming will be featured quite prominently through the experience. Min-maxing is a natural continuation from that, bit like cause and effect. I think we should all just enjoy farming and be happy that we can farm for stuff. To make amends with the non-farming folk, I suggest the very functional system of new game+ with mobs on steroids.

The adventure mode of Dwarf Fortress is one example where people jump to the other deep end of the pool. Without any storyline progression mechanic the game becomes just an exercise in survival. Everything is randomized when the world is generated, so you probably won't see much in the way of familiar landmarks in another world. The ultimate freedom to the player turns out to be actually somewhat boring and stale, and enjoyment is drawn from the powerful modding system. Another game series I've played a lot is Disgaea, which consists of a joke storyline and a grind that seems to have no end. That can get a little old too, after a few hundred gameplay hours, but I still play them regularly to see if I could catch that next milestone or twenty while at it.

To sum these rambling thoughts together we, as players, would like a well desiged game with sensible mechanics and enjoyable content. After more than twenty years of gaming as a hobby, it starts to feel like a fantasy that will never take place in reality. I'll also have to mention that I have high expectations for Grim Dawn and that Crate will solve this problem.

[madned]

Originally Posted by Batou

...There were some points I didn't see anyone addressing, and the most pressing of them is the amount and degree of hand-holding implemented in the game. Artificial systems - like the one described in the opening post - are always a trade between immersion and coercion for me.
...
Min-maxing is a natural continuation from that, bit like cause and effect. I think we should all just enjoy farming and be happy that we can farm for stuff. To make amends with the non-farming folk, I suggest the very functional system of new game+ with mobs on steroids.
...
Dwarf Fortress...The ultimate freedom to the player turns out to be actually somewhat boring and stale, and enjoyment is drawn from the powerful modding system. Another game series I've played a lot is Disgaea, which consists of a joke storyline and a grind that seems to have no end. That can get a little old too, after a few hundred gameplay hours, but I still play them regularly to see if I could catch that next milestone or twenty while at it.

To sum these rambling thoughts together we, as players, would like a well desig[n]ed game with sensible mechanics and enjoyable content. After more than twenty years of gaming as a hobby, it starts to feel like a fantasy that will never take place in reality. I'll also have to mention that I have high expectations for Grim Dawn and that Crate will solve this problem.

wow nice first post. :greetz:

beyond that. might i direct your attention to the current understanding of Cairn. http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3116

it helped me frame the proposed mechanics better than basing off TQ.

after a little consideration. new game+ always struck me a something for farmers/OCDers once just aint enough so you go again, and maybe again after that. and what the heck once more.

on the other hand ppl that don't have at least a little farming in them probably won't be attracted to an ARPG, cuz usually ARPGs run on the growth of stats as is virtually completely enshrined in disgaea(which is not an ARPG, but does grow stats by the boatload.).

[Pheno]

First off, I love you guys for allowing us to communicate directly with the game designers, and secondly, for letting us know what's on your mind (and getting into specific detail) so that we can offer our input.

Here's my thoughts/philosophy on farming (in detail of course!)

You CANNOT deny the fact that farming in games isn't fun and exciting. Most hardcore gamers can't get enough of it. Take a look at all of the successful MMOs and RPGs out there. Those games are built on farming, grinding, loot, and currency and I think that's the perfect way to go IF IT'S DONE RIGHT.

Look at the Diablo series. Why does everyone play the same thing over and over even though they've beaten inferno a million times? Because they enjoy farming for gold and better gear so that they can continue farming more efficiently. It's very exciting knowing that you might get an awesome drop that will improve your character or boost your bankroll.

I think devs need to focus on their markets in terms of the "gamer types" that are out there. The two categories relevant to my post are the casual gamers and the actual gamers (hardcore). You mentioned that grinding and farming might not be fun. This could be true for most casual gamers, but not for the hardcore players that you should actually be focusing on. We (the hardcore) are the gamers that will continue to play for years, thus promoting and keeping the game alive.


In order to help you guys out as much as I can. Here's my critique on Diablo 3.

The Diablo formula is "getting there". What does it have exactly?
1. MMO type elements -CRAFTING(although needs some work) -farming/grinding -trade/currency -gear/loot from mobs and bosses
2. The combat is quite unique from other MMOs/RPGs, and, by opinion is favored by a large sum of players.

The main reasons I don't like it (and I've heard rants from many players) is how the loot and gear is handled. The randomly generated stats on gear is absolutely disgusting and lazy. You're telling me I've put all this work in just to get the item I wanted but with the wrong stats on it? The item is ultra-rare in the first place! Why even try anymore?

The trade system and currency system isn't balanced to actually work out. Gear doesn't bind to anything. Gear won't sell. In other words, if you're going to have a trade system, have it work or else don't have one at all.

I hope I helped a bit.

[Magic Missile]

I must admit, I am a little bothered that this thread exists. So much so I registered after a long time away just to post in it.

I mean come on, isn't farming for items kind of the whole point, and there's only a problem with this if you're grinding forever just for a chance of a decent item (like some other games I won't mention) or items are raining from the sky (can't think of any examples)?

TQ was actually very good about this. You can play the game and find decent stuff, if you farmed for a bit you'd have a number of good items to show for it.

But when people talk about "discouraging farming" in an ARPG, that is the same as saying discouraging playing.

[Corpsecrank]

I feel that a lot of time and careful consideration has been spent on the subject of farming this makes me want to buy this game that much more but I think it is a pretty important thing for any serious developer to consider.

I do believe it is "fun" to some people. It is just really hard to imagine it being fun if you never liked doing it.

Because there are players who enjoy killing bosses for good loot drops I would suggest leaving that an open mechanic that players can utilize if they feel like doing so. That happens to be some people's preferred way because it is something they are good at and can do to obtain great rewards.

On the other hand no one who dislikes farming would want to be forced to do so to get the same kind of loot and reward. Because of that I think the same type of loot should be obtainable other ways. Some people like to gamble at in game casinos. Dragon quest slot machines or poker anyone? So you could offer some other outlets for players to seek out and earn the best loot that kind of makes it a win for everyone. No matter what it is you like doing you can do that and still be at the top end of the game.

It is important to keep in mind some players have a certain style they are best at playing and it is better to suit various styles of play than to simply try to eliminate all current styles in favor of a forced new style.

[lemonrev]

I belive if they thought this through then maybe put another poll regarding these points and see how everyone puts there polls on what questions we shoudl go for.

like

Do we want looting and or shops to sell items

do we want make lesser items disappear as we level up and still have shops

do we want grinding / looting / shops ?

do we want one run though a level right up to end boss ?

stuff like this in a poll and see how we as people vote ?.

what you guys think ?

[madned]

Originally Posted by Magic Missile

I must admit, I am a little bothered that this thread exists. So much so I registered after a long time away just to post in it.

...there's only a problem with this if you're grinding forever just for a chance of a decent item (like some other games I won't mention) or items are raining from the sky (can't think of any examples)?

welcome, actually if you read the OP. that's pretty much the tone. farming isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not always the most pleasant task.

for one where gear falls from the sky, play borderlands and kill craw. well ok more of a fountain, wells from the ground and cast realllly high. otoh sturgeon's law, but you generally pick up about 5-10 pieces at least to vendor.

[Vigisroda]

I didn't read it all, i just wanted to state my honest opinion here.

I think farming CAN be fun, depending from game to game, but if, and only IF it is rewarding.
There is nothing more satisfying in the RPG-world then finally finding that last set item you have been wanting for so long. It wouldn't be bad to work for it, after all, set items are usually rare, so how would you complete a set without farming? Especially if there are multiple (sets).

[Rubius]

The way I see as a one time player of a game (Except rare occasion like Titan Quest or Borderland) is that farming is great to others who want to focus on the game and get the best things.
What I would suggest is to put some bosses and champions and even some common mobs have ULTRA RARE items. Here for example a MMOARPG I played a lot, Ragnarok Online.
In Ragnarok Online, most monsters had 4 category of items that could drop. The Common(90-30% of chance) :Healing stuff
Uncommon(30%-1% of chance) : Weapons
Rare 1%-0.02%) Vanity items
Really rare (0.01% of chance): Really powerfull items/gems and really rare Vanity items.

The rare items were rare but not too rare that in a normal playthough you have no chance to get it, but that when you get it you feel special. And the really rare stuff were powerful items that could give skills or change the behavior/element or an item. People farmed for weeks to get some of those Really rare items.
And when you get one, you are REALLY happy.

So yeah, include a chance to get rare items/Vanity items but leave the weird and powerfull stuff to a really low level of chance.