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Old 05-02-2012, 03:29 AM
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Default Following on from the IAmA...

Hi there, my first post here. Been following the game's development for a while though and have backed on KS.

I missed out on the IAmA but there was one question which I was interested in, which was the question about blocking and rolling.

On from this, I am wondering...what were the opinions of the Grim Dawn devs of Dungeon Siege 3?

Even though this game got panned by the gaming media, and was definitely consolized, I thought the combat was handled excellently. There were other aspects of the game which weren't so hot but the combat, they got this down pretty damn well. Lucas in particular felt very fun to play. Granted I only played the game on Hardcore, so I'm not sure how boring it got on the easier difficulty settings.

Now I'm not suggesting these mechanics be put into Grim Dawn, but I am interested to know what other developers in the same genre thought of the combat mechanics of DS3.
  #2  
Old 05-02-2012, 06:54 PM
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Hi Cynic,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
the question about blocking and rolling
It believe you are referring to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleywr
Has there been any thought into adding systems to make combat more actiony? Dodge-rolls, timed blocks ect? Obviously this would be a departure for most ARPG's, just wondering if you've ever considered it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra
We've sort of considered it but we're at a point where we really need to be careful about what new features we take on with our very limited resources. I also sort of feel like that isn't quite the type of game we're building. To me, ARPG is more about the sort of meta-tactics of laying down synergistic skills, figuring the best way to counter certain enemies, tactical movement to avoid being surrounded / avoid high-damage attacks, etc and of course the strategic aspect of character building.
I didn't play DS3 - so, my opinion on its combat system is of nobody's interest Take a look around in the What Else Are You Playing? forum - e.g.: Dungeon Siege III and Dungeon Siege III Again?

... but welcome to the forums.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
Hi there, my first post here. Been following the game's development for a while though and have backed on KS.
Thank you for the support!


Quote:
On from this, I am wondering...what were the opinions of the Grim Dawn devs of Dungeon Siege 3?

.......

Now I'm not suggesting these mechanics be put into Grim Dawn, but I am interested to know what other developers in the same genre thought of the combat mechanics of DS3.
To be honest, I played the demo and I just felt like I was struggling against the controls, especially the camera. Loot pickup was also tough and it felt like it just took to much effort to do everything.

In terms of combat, I think it may just be an issue of personal preference but I don't really enjoy that style of combat in an ARPG. I guess I'd say that while we might be in the same genre as DS3, we're sort of in different sub-genres. My personal feeling as a player is that I prefer either traditional, largely mouse-driven combat, oriented around use of class skills for an isometric ARPG or a full-on Elder Scrolls style RPG with actiony combat and a fully controllable first-person or 3rd person over-the-shoulder camera. I tend to not really like games that are somewhere in the middle.

Of course, this is just my personal taste, I don't think DS3 is a bad game and I'm not trying to say that they should have done anything differently.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:56 PM
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We're definitely in the minority but I also love the combat and even the controls in Dungeon Siege 3. I feel the combat feels more engaging and frankly interesting than in a lot of other loot em ups where it's mostly click click click. With that said, I don't think it would be a good idea for Grim Dawn to head in that direction. The reason being that I feel like DS3 controlled much better using the WASD keys for movement than using the mouse for that purpose, and even better with a gamepad. The issue of adding WASD and/or gamepad support has already been brought up before and it's been explained that it would not be nearly as simple to add as many think. Basically what I'm saying is that while I really like DS3's control/combat mechanics, the combat mechanics in Titan Quest were fine and I think the resources it would take to alter Grim Dawn's mechanics and controls to mimic what DS3 did would be much better spent in other areas, like making the game bigger and with more quests, lore, areas, loot, etc.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:19 PM
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Thanks for replying Arthur. There was a keybinding patch that made the game much more playable on the PC. However, it was definitely much more suited to a controller.

I understand your difference in taste, but to tell you the truth I think DS3 was actually very unique in its approach and was maybe the only game that has tried to blend old ARPG isometric mechanics with very Capcom-esque systems. I think they did a good job of this because on the hardest difficulty the combat was intense, challenging and very rewarding.

You still had to click a lot, but block and roll brought a lot more variety to the way the game played. Block was fine in that you couldn't do it forever, roll was broken though as you could just continually roll with a healing ability on and not get hit. Even with this exploit though the game was still tough on Hardcore because quite a few mobs could one shot you.

What I was wondering was perhaps if they had done things a bit differently, maybe it would sync with your taste a bit better. For example, what if an evasive roll or a blocking type action were merely low level abilities that consumed some resource. Maybe not a huge amount but a moderate amount. Also they would have a significant cool down. That way, you couldn't spam them but you'd still get the strategic bonus of having the ability at your disposal.

I thought the stances were a cool way of adding variety as well, but were very much there due to console controllers being much more limited than keyboards. But even then, being able to switch between basically 2 different styles of fighting in one press added a layer of complexity that was quite fun.

Even though so many wrote this game off, I think that actually it was very unique and there really hasn't been much like it. I think that threw a lot of people off. It's a shame because underneath, it was actually not a bad game, not the best sure, but definitely a lot of fun. Of course it had problems, loot was one of them, terrible online multiplayer another, and the setting was pretty mundane, although honestly, Obsidian did the absolute best they could with one of the most generic fantasy IPs ever.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:02 PM
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Just as an addendum, the stances wouldn't work in a game like Grim Dawn, I think that level of variety is much better suited to some kind of dual or multi classing. This makes stat progression of your character vitally important.

What kind of build do you want? There needs to be a variety of different paths to go based on how you choose stats, something which Diablo 3 has completely done away with. DS3 also basically had no control over character progression and all customization was based on what loot you wanted to equip.

I've actually never played D1, D2 or TQ, I'm much more a party based cRPG person. If I make comparisons to D&D, if you wanted to be a fighter mage, you'd make sure you had decent strength, int, and then con and maybe dex as well.

Because of dual classing, the problem of build focusing on only one or two stats is removed. I have heard some mentioning of cross classing skills in some of the Grim Dawn videos, is this sort of like dual/multi classing?
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
I thought the stances were a cool way of adding variety as well, but were very much there due to console controllers being much more limited than keyboards. But even then, being able to switch between basically 2 different styles of fighting in one press added a layer of complexity that was quite fun.
nah, they just needed those because gamepads have about 4 buttons, so they had to toggle between the 8 skills by putting them into two stances.

It doesn't offer complexity, it just does not make good use of a keyboard. On a keyboard you simply pick the skill you want and the change between stances is implicit, nothing else changes.

Also no fan of the active block an roll in ARPGs, leave that to Skyrim etc.

Quote:
Even though so many wrote this game off, I think that actually it was very unique and there really hasn't been much like it. I think that threw a lot of people off. It's a shame because underneath, it was actually not a bad game, not the best sure, but definitely a lot of fun. Of course it had problems, loot was one of them, terrible online multiplayer another, and the setting was pretty mundane, although honestly, Obsidian did the absolute best they could with one of the most generic fantasy IPs ever.
Multiplayer was ridiculous an their 'reasons' for why they had that kind in rang hollow.

The game was decent, nothing special for me but kept me occupied while there were no other ARPGs out there.

Camera was bad (the only options were 'much too close' and 'still too close') and it clearly was made with a gamepad in mind, mouse and keyboard support was mediocre at best, which to me is a major factor.

Also, loot prefixes and affixes and how they affect your stats / skills was pretty weak. Few bonuses and not very well explained either which kept you wondering what bonuses you should prefer. I kinda settled with only a few types of bonuses I felt I understood and ignored the others which from my understanding were inferior or simply entirely unclear.

Definitely would have needed more variety there, loot is a major factor in an ARPG.

Last edited by mamba; 05-03-2012 at 04:20 AM.
  #8  
Old 05-03-2012, 04:51 AM
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Yeah camera was a bit of an issue, mostly for me I felt the tilt was just wrong. It either needed to be pulled further back, or tilted upwards to allow more vision of what was going on. I noticed that D3 also had a "too close" camera as well. I guess it's a vanity cam but really no point to this.

Yes their reasons for gimping MP were bad. None of it really made sense and their excuses for sharing a camera in MP really just translated as "we ran out of money".

I dunno if I agree with this hatred against active block and evasion idea that many ARPG fans spout. It does add more options and diversifies the combat consderably, I just think these things should not be spammable/relied upon too much. I personally hate kiting as well which seems to be just accepted as standard fare in APRGs. How about giving me some options not to kite, to get forward, and be aggressive but make it a kind of gamble. This is what I liked about DS3's combat.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:49 AM
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As you describe block/roll Cynic, they seem to fit well as a skill, no a basic function. Also block and roll (evade) are implicitly calculated (shield, 20% of -60 dmg).

And more of a personal choice, but active block/roll isn't very suited to isometric view, I do prefer them in third or first person view (mounts and blade). Also if no done well, the game just end being a rock/paper/scissors game, where you wait for the enemy to attack, then block/roll then attack... Just look how boring and broken the combats are in Assassins Creed and in Elder Scrolls.
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:19 AM
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Yeah I am not thinking of them as a basic function. Definitely for this kind of game they need to be skills with cool downs or something to prevent it from being a cheap tactic that breaks the game play.

You mentioned that they are implicitly calculated. That is cool, but what if for EXTRA damage reduction, you can block, or, raise your shield for a certain period of time. Let's say this is a skill, and you have a big cool down on the ability, so you can't just spam it over and over again.

Similarly with an evade, of course you still have natural evade chances, but what if there was a skill with a big cool down that just got you the hell out of there. I saw on some of the game play videos that there was a kind of dashing attack. This in essence, is what I am talking about, but it wouldn't need a target to focus on.

Maybe some classes have better shield than others (melee) while some have better evade skills (rogue/assassin type).

I thought the Souls games did a great thing where you had to have incredible endurance to wear heavy armour and still evade. It just adds that level of complexity.

I disagree that dodge rolls aren't suited to top down isometric games. I think DS3 did actually pull it off well, but was hampered by the camera being too close and the engine not being able to tilt it's view further, not to mention you could roll around forever. It had its issues but the idea was not bad at all, it really added a level of flair to the fighting. You could interrupt any attack sequence with a roll, this was really fun when you had say, 3 enemies surrounding you and you could volley some attacks at one, roll behind another and get a few hits in, then go back and finish off the first. It was genuinely very entertaining and satisfying.
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