Motivation to back the game if you didn't like Titan Quest

[Hypercrazy]

Originally Posted by Cerno

I'm sorry, I thought I read in some discussion thread that there weren't. Anyway then that point isn't moot and I would like to reiterate that every line delivered by an NPC should be part of the story.

If a girl tells me that her parents are upset all the time because people keep vanishing from the village, that's perfectly fine as it helps setting the mood. But please don't let some random guy drone on and on about some legendary sword if he can't put it in an interesting context.

For my tastes, long stories belong in books to be found along the way or should be scattered among different NPCs so that the story can be pieced together bit by bit.

Maybe my memory of TQ is a bit clouded, but I think what mainly went on my nerves was the amount of slowly scrolling long boring text passages to read.

I agree that the long scrolling text was annoying and didn't really add to the feel of the quest it self. I'm personally really looking forward to seeing what they do with the story and factions etc. They have a lot they can work with here.

As for the bosses, another thing I agree with. They seemed randomly placed in the area sometimes with a random NPC or specific NPC stating "watch out for the gorgon sisters they turn you to stone." Diablo certainly has the bosses down to a tasteful level they all seem meaningful, as well as getting to them felt like a real challenge in terms of the setting. However I think that's just due to the atmosphere and dark gritting feeling. With Grim Dawn the direction certainly seems to be on par.

The skill tree is something to this day I still love and praise as one of my favorites. That's not to say it could sure use improvements, however I loved the fact that you had to post points into the tree itself in order to unlock the skills and then get those skills. It made me want to push even further to get the abilities. Some of them however where not as satisfying as they sounded mixed with the fact nothing in that game had blood really took away from the impact of the abilities.

[Cerno]

Yes, Eisprinzessin, that was part of the problem indeed. I think the more time you spend with figuring out different character builds, the more rewarding the skill system becomes.

I guess in the end, it simply was not accessible enough for me. That doesn't mean it should be dumbed down, I think the magical words "easy to learn, difficult to master" apply pretty well here.

[mamba]

Originally Posted by Cerno

Skill Tree
I am not sure why I found the Skill Tree lacking as I believe that many of you consider it a strong point of the game. Maybe I chose a bad build or I misunderstood the system, but for some reason it didn't work for me. If I remember correctly, often I didn't feel the impact of my decisions. I think in Diablo whenever you upgrade or open up a new skill, you immediately felt that it altered the way you played or monsters were easier to defeat, but maybe that's just the fond memories speaking. Maybe I just had a problem with the fact that I didn't feel that I was growing as a character.

I just looked up your review of TQ you spoke about in the first post. I really have no idea what you are talking of here "And most abilities seemed to have a severe downside that made them utterly unappealing.".

What downside ? I can see some not being as powerful as others, but I can't think of any skill that had an actual downside.

Also in TQ, you can improve the same skill multiple times, so a one time investment is not necessarily making a big difference, but repeated investments certainly do.

[Cerno]

Originally Posted by mamba

I just looked up your review of TQ you spoke about in the first post. I really have no idea what you are talking of here "And most abilities seemed to have a severe downside that made them utterly unappealing.".

What downside ? I can see some not being as powerful as others, but I can't think of any skill that had an actual downside.

Also in TQ, you can improve the same skill multiple times, so a one time investment is not necessarily making a big difference, but repeated investments certainly do.

I have to apologise for my wording in that review. I remember being pretty upset at the game because I expected so much more from it, so I might have been a bit too judgemental. I even finished it but was kind of glad that it was over. To back up my review, here are two skills that I remember having downsides:

- Stone Form: Boosts regeneration but prohibits movement
- Freezing Blast: Immobilize enemies but make them harder to damage

I know, not really "most skills" as I wrote, but I guess that kind of exaggeration was just the rage talking. I think it would have been more accurate to put it like Eisprinzessin. The descriptions often made it difficult to guess the impact of the skills, so may that's why I couldn't find anything that piqued my interest.

Maybe I was lacking imagination but honestly, I was looking over the tree several times and was hard pressed to decide which skill to take, but not because there were so many good ones but because I didn't find anything that I wanted.

[zidders]

I think it's pretty safe to say that I think if you're a member of this forum you're either

A)Someone who liked Titan Quest who wants to get a game made by some of the folks who made it or

B)Someone who might not have liked Titan quest who has reasons of your own for thinking Crate is going to make a decent game, in which case it's unnecessary to convince you why you should give Grim Dawn a chance, despite your dislike of Titan Quest, since you've already decided that it isn't a factor in your decision to come here and support Crate.

[medierra]

Hi Cerno,

I think we're addressing most of your points, although creating a good build-up to bosses wasn't something I had thought about, so I appreciate you mentioning that. It makes sense and we'll try to do a better job this time around.

I wasn't involved much in the creation of the story or atmosphere in Titan Quest and I always had a similar feeling that there just wasn't that same magical feeling of mystery and danger that I experienced in Diablo. That is something we're putting a lot of effort into on Grim Dawn.

I think I know what you're saying about the skill trees. In retrospect, looking back, I feel I was a little too conservative when designing the skills. I've made an effort this time to have a few more active, flashier skills in most masteries.

I think I actually share a lot of same feelings as many Diablo fans who didn't really get into TQ (ducks rotten fruit). I'm pleased with most of the gameplay systems and they'll be returning on Grim Dawn but now that I have more control over the story / atmosphere, I think that is something we can do a better job with. Among other things, I really want Grim Dawn to have that sort of magical feeling of intrigue and danger that was missing for me in TQ.

[Cerno]

Hello medierra, everyone.

Just to let you know, I recently backed the Kickstarter project.

The dedication that goes into the game shines through everything here. On top of that you have a really great community. I have some bad memories of discussion threads in certain forums (*cough* ValveBlizzard *cough*) where you couldn't say anything critical without being instaflamed by a bunch of rabid fanboys with moderators nowhere to be seen.

It really thrills me that here you can have a decent discussion about things you consider problematic and be taken seriously for it. I wish you best of luck and the strength to pull this through. Since Diablo 3 died for me when they announced the online-only functionality I am happy that I have a (hopefully) worthy replacement to look forward to. I have waited 11 years for a game that became unplayable within the last few months, so I guess I can wait another year to get my fix.

All the best, Cerno

[eisprinzessin]

Huzzah You might want to have a sneak peak at GD's masteries and skills (pre-alpha status)

[Kardiophylax]

Given the number of skills in each mastery, it is fair to say that some of them are going to feel less effective or interesting than others.

I used stone form on occasion, but for the most part I considered it a one point wonder skill designed only to buy a few seconds of cooldown time on one of your escape skills. Pretty much a last resort if doing a "hardcore" type of run. The Storm mastery has so many awesome skills I never bothered much with Freezing Blast. Squall and Spell Breaker were both game changers when fully upgraded.

I loved the fact that I could combine my mastery choices in interesting ways. For instance, I could play a magician and have traps that shot out flaming arrows. Perhaps I wanted to play an archer who had a fire elemental tanking for him. Or, instead, I might want to play a storm archer who unleashed magical bolts, suppressed enemy fire with my squall, and ran away using trail blazing and storm surge to keep the enemies off my back. Maybe I want to confuse them with my Brigand's mandrake soaked arrows and escape with my flash powder if the shit hits the fan. In most games you are lucky if you have 1 way to play an archer, perhaps with a couple branching paths for elemental attacks or multishot. In Titan Quest, you have so many more options. In fact, my sage was one of my favorite characters and not really one of the more common builds.

I'm sorry, Titan Quest had some issues, but the skill choices were not part of them. They were the thing that kept me playing, even more so than the loot. Skills (lack of variety) were also the #1 reason I got bored with Torchlight after a month or so.

[Hypercrazy]

Thanks for the support Cerno. The community on this forum is absolutely great. You can tell we're all a big family and every single one of us just loves every and all kinds of aRPG. I think that's what separates us from the rapid D3 fan boys who think in their mind the only aRPG is Diablo.