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Old 04-13-2012, 02:56 PM
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medierra medierra is offline
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I'm pretty much in agreement with you Urban Scorpion.

In the D3 beta when the NPCs escort you to quest objectives, it is through areas with no enemies. So, really, you might as well be forced to stand there listening to their long, drawn out tale, it is the same thing, just disguised by running.

Some people don't mind that sort of thing but, like you, I find it annoying and increasingly so with each play-through.

On the other hand, when you first meet the templar sidekick, he has pieces of dialog he says while you're fighting. I don't mind that since you can just keep fighting and don't have to follow him or lead him anywhere. I think it is also optional whether you invite him to join you or not, whereas in the story quests, you have no choice.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:38 PM
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SoulSeekkor SoulSeekkor is offline
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I agree with Urban and Medierra, quests with escort portions with far too slow NPCs are simply frustrating. If fighting is involved (and quickly) then I can handle that...but even in Skyrim, as much as I love the game...I want to shoot it when I have to follow that NPC that walks at 1mph from point A to point B a mile away. Doesn't happen often thankfully but when it does it's my least enjoyable part of the game... Hell I don't even mind WoW's collect X items quests compared to that (not that I play anymore).

As much as some decisions they made with D3 turns me off (mainly always online requirement, bleck), I'll most likely give it a try still...but I'm honestly looking forward to Grim Dawn more than D3 or PoE (although still enjoyable).

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Old 04-13-2012, 03:51 PM
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Urban Scorpion Urban Scorpion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
In the D3 beta when the NPCs escort you to quest objectives, it is through areas with no enemies. So, really, you might as well be forced to stand there listening to their long, drawn out tale, it is the same thing, just disguised by running.
That's just evil. It's a way of tying the player to their chair if they wish to play the game, long before they are allowed to play the game.

Even the tram opening of the original Half-Life wasn't that bad (I could go make a sandwich). But it still kept me from playing the game a second time for a long while. This was before the graphics were considered to be dated.

Last edited by Urban Scorpion; 04-13-2012 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Half-Life was played multiple times, just took a while.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:13 AM
TECHNOmancer TECHNOmancer is offline
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Fascinating stuff. I have to agree that an interactive medium quickly becomes frustrating when it's forced into the mold of a non-interactive one. The last thing I want is for my entertainment to approximate real-life tedium.

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Old 04-17-2012, 07:25 PM
Timobkg Timobkg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Scorpion View Post
That's just evil. It's a way of tying the player to their chair if they wish to play the game, long before they are allowed to play the game.

Even the tram opening of the original Half-Life wasn't that bad (I could go make a sandwich). But it still kept me from playing the game a second time for a long while. This was before the graphics were considered to be dated.
Not sure what version of the D3 beta he played, but currently there are 3 cases where you have to go with NPCs, and none of them feel like an escort quest.

1) NPC follows you at your speed, helps you fight enemies. Very short duration.
2) NPC leads you through town to a basement, at your speed, but you're free to follow at your leasure. Inside the basement, NPC follows at your speed. Very short duration.
3) NPC follows you at your speed, helps you fight enemies. This one lasts some time, until you're given the choice to continue with them as a companion (if playing singleplayer).

None feature unskippable dialog that you have to sit through (excluding two very brief in-engine events), and having played through the 2-2.5 hour beta 4-5 times within a week, none of the NPC interactions bothered me as annoying. Some of the voice actors / acting, on the other hand... There are only 3 games where the voice acting bothers me, and the D3 beta is one of them.
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:58 AM
509dave16 509dave16 is offline
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Exclamation Web of Reward

1)Reward and Experience Intertwined
2)World Progression and Immersion
3)Power
Conclusion: Getting Rewarded to gain that Experience

1)
In many games, there is a relationship between the experience and rewards. As the player continues to fight through the world there are enemies(such as in Dark Souls and Demon's Souls) that act as sentries to prevent you from reaching your goal or hinder your efforts to change the world. Building your character up to the point where it is possible to take on these behemoths, is an exciting experience. Finding that next piece of loot or maybe getting that new skill, give you the edge needed to overcome those behemoths.

2)
Whether gaining access to that new region or finding an extraordinary dungeon, entering different places in the world that the player can change and experience produce a sense of accomplishment and awe. You may encounter new challenging enemies to defeat or unique/unexpected npcs that you fall in love with as you follow different questlines or factions.

3)
Having the ability, to stay alive to a make those changes,defeat those enemies, or see that wonderous place in the world is great.Those three things are what drive gaining power. When either one of those is diminished, you feel that your power means nothing: No changes, No challenge, or No jaw dropping sights.

Conclusion: If there are no experiences to be enjoyed after overcoming an obstacle or making a change, what's the point of power. Nothing. So not only do you lose the experience, you also lose the fun of gaining power. The point of the power was to be able go through those experiences. Making sure that the player impacts the world, is challenged by enemies, and is thrilled by new sights and npcs, inspires the player to press onward and reach for as much power as possible. Thus giving the incentive to play through the whole game and in the end say "That was awesome, I want to go back!".
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
Exploration / seeing cool things for the first time
That's a very big draw for me. I just love to find stuff, and one other recent game that handled this very well was The Binding of Isaac. I saw new stuff after 10, 20, 40, 60, and even 100 hours.
Some of it came from me unlocking new content, some stuff just happened at random and surprised me when I thought I knew how things went.
That's why I thought an "arcade" mode in addition to the normal campaign might be cool as an expansion or dlc.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:28 PM
Grogmonkey Grogmonkey is offline
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While it is important to ensure that the player experiences an abundance of 'profit', sometimes it's easy to fall into the trap that the profit must be an active experience; either engaging in combat, or seeing something new, or getting something. Sometimes the best way to portion out the profit is with a generous sprinkling of 'not profit'.

Which isn't to say purposefully add 'loss'. Rather, to add points which aren't necessarily profit, but don't descend into the realms of tedium and disappointment.

The most successful entertainment products utilise peaks and troughs to dictate the emotion (the sense of reward) from their viewers; the troughs setting up the peaks to make them all the more powerful. The risk of focussing purely on 'profit', on rewarding the player and removing as much downtime as possible, is you either create an unsustainable, exponential curve of reward, where each reward must be greater than the last or risk disappointment. Or, even worse than that, you create a plateau of tedium, where, despite the fact you are constantly offering rewards, the fact it's a non-stop supply diminishes the effect until it becomes the norm.

Also, as a seperate issue, sometimes rewards are actually loses in disguise. For instance, a pet peeve of mine with Diablo 2 specifically (and later WoW) was with the loot drops. While I understand a large portion of the design of Diablo was around multiplayer (and to a lesser extent, replay), the fact that while I was playing single player as a specific class loot would drop that I couldn't use was endlessly frustrating.

For unmagical items it was fine, and even magical items wasn't that big of a deal, when it came to the epic and definitely the set drops, seeing something amazing appear which I couldn't actually use was incredibly disappointing. Especially if, as happened to me on one occassion, a second item for that set drops in the same playthrough, without ever seeing an set item that I could use.

The one thing you definitely shouldn't do is 'reward' the player into ditching a character they've put a bunch of time into just because the game seems to be suggesting that you're playing the wrong character!

And because you can quite happily increase the drop rates for class items that are actually currently being played. (Potential imbalances to multiplayer and trading systems/economies notwithstanding.)
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:56 AM
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I think one of the biggest rewards for a game like this is definitely randomized stat overpowered loot farming, especially after several play throughs. In D2 it was the "scratch ticket effect" of Unique's, and in TQ it was the MI's. I even LOVED the broken MI's like Homando's, and was dissapointed when the Fanpatch fixed them. I think Med covered the romance of exploiting game mechanics in his RPS interview, and agree with him totally.
I think the real challenge is to figure out a way to keep "ShopMI" type mods from replicating these items to keep instant gratification urges at bay, keeping the reward value of these items intact.
Making it impossible to import characters from Custom Quests would help this if it is possible.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:10 PM
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Very interesting medierra, but I'd add something for the D2 example.

What was for me really fun in TQ contrary to Diablo was the foutain system. I explain. I'm from those who just want to COMPLETELY sweep the shadow on the map and kill all enemies. I want to be able to play 15 min, then save, and play again without being respwan at the same point as my previous launch. Diablo 2 introduces the automatic respawn, I'm not really for this system, but I understand that's the solution for replayability without creating a new game. But when you have to play 3 hours between every "save points", and you have just 15 min to play, you have the choice to : 1. do something useless, or 2. speed up without killing all enemies and find all secrets to find the next town portal. Because of this, I just hated the third act of Diablo 2. Being "obliged" to play a very long time just to reach the next point, bouah !

I'm sorry about that, and I hope the system of frequent fountains of resurrection (not for resurrection, just as saving point) will be kept.
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