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  #31  
Old 03-26-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
We were building a game with relatively complicated and hardcore gameplay systems but trying to make it thematically and visually appealing to as wide a casual audience as possible. The end result, is that the game was a little more bland and generic in some respects than it should have been and the game world didn't do much to convey a sense of danger.

Basically, my belief is that Titan Quest never had as much style and character as it could have because we were afraid to do anything even remotely controversial.
wow... just... wow... you know, at one time or other i wanted to talk about how the titan quest demo didn't catch me and i picked up the game much much later (around '08/'09). which had something to do with how i liked soulstorms new ideas for dawn of war so i somewhat trusted iron lore at that time when i was on the lookout for a diablo 2 substitute with modding capabilities... and now only to read you already knew a lot more than i could've hoped to convey? what is this crazy world you come from where people evaluate their own work in critical ways instead of being aggressive-defensive about it when the wall of denial crumbles? is that the promised "new world"? is everybody like that in the us of a?

i would've started by describing titan quest as too clean, the threat came off as staged aaaaaand... i haven't thought this through obviously... and i certainly can't say "look at how diablo 2 does it better" because i can't spell 'it' out into its details (though immortal throne and the siege of the elysian fields certainly does it better...). but let me strongly reinforce these evaluation of yours. admittedly i originally really thought you guys just weren't that great in the atmosphere/design department (or whatever you wanna call 'it' that troubled me with titan quest) but had great underlying mechanics - which somehow didn't match up. and at one point even i was looking forward to diablo 3 and thought "oh, these guys too..." after seeing the first screens for grim dawn. now i have backed this game and can't be arsed to only try that other one. so whenever in doubt - if you ask me - your "belief", as you carefully put it, heavily heels towards the fact-side of things... no wait, it just tilted over completely to the facts.

Last edited by durruti; 03-26-2012 at 09:05 PM.
  #32  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:14 PM
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That's one of the biggest flaws in the current generation of publishers. They're not looking at the actual product their studios are producing but at snippets of marketable factoids in a vacuum with little or no tangible or measurable comprehension of how well or even IF that "bullet point summary of features" can actually play together amicably. Mr. Fargo may have been speaking partially in jest in the "mock" publisher luncheon part of his pitch, but it's not THAT far from the mark.

They really cannot see the forest for the trees, and it's starting to irritate and aggravate their customers and the developers upon whom their entire empire is built. You can clearly see this playing out as long term veterans are turning their back on big publisher studios and striking out on their own either to create their own studios or simply to other careers (and that is truly a damned shame).

Of course, the amusing fact is that once the people who actually made a studio WORTH anything jump ship, the publisher which bought them is left scratching their heads wondering why their uninspired amalgam of insipid "marketable" drivel isn't driving the sales charts.
  This is the last staff post in this thread.   #33  
Old 03-27-2012, 08:31 AM
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Haha, durruti, I actually used to get very defensive of criticism when I was younger. It is easy to get over that behavior though once you realize that it is probably the biggest contributor to human failure in any endeavor.

I remember many years ago, I think in my early 20s sometime, I made a rule for myself that I was not allowed to disagree or make excuses when I received critical feedback; I just had to accept it. It was very difficult at first but eventually I got over that feeling of anger / embarrassment that I think causes people to act defensively in the face of criticism. Now I welcome critical feedback because I know it is something I can use to my advantage.
  #34  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LostSoul View Post
That's one of the biggest flaws in the current generation of publishers. They're not looking at the actual product their studios are producing but at snippets of marketable factoids in a vacuum with little or no tangible or measurable comprehension of how well or even IF that "bullet point summary of features" can actually play together amicably. Mr. Fargo may have been speaking partially in jest in the "mock" publisher luncheon part of his pitch, but it's not THAT far from the mark.

They really cannot see the forest for the trees, and it's starting to irritate and aggravate their customers and the developers upon whom their entire empire is built. You can clearly see this playing out as long term veterans are turning their back on big publisher studios and striking out on their own either to create their own studios or simply to other careers (and that is truly a damned shame).

Of course, the amusing fact is that once the people who actually made a studio WORTH anything jump ship, the publisher which bought them is left scratching their heads wondering why their uninspired amalgam of insipid "marketable" drivel isn't driving the sales charts.

Diatribe on the state of games, but QFT (IMO) nonetheless.
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It may also be surprising to know that some players prefer different play-styles.
  #35  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:38 AM
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It's super interesting hearing about just how much influence the publisher has. I remember back when I was younger, when me and my friends were confused about the whole publisher/developer thing and eventually figured out that, say, Atari didn't actually make the game, but in hindsight i guess they sorta do after all.
Coincidentally I saw this article on Eurogamer today.
Brian Fargo rips into destructive publisher/developer relationships

It's funny that you mention the dowry ring quest as that's the one quest that really sticks out for me in all of TQ. It's just really bizarre with all this epic stuff going down with titans and magic and towns getting overrun. I remember wondering if - almost assuming that - the wedding tied into some bigger epic thing that would play a part in the story, that maybe it was a reference to some greek mythology I wasn't familiar with.

It's a bit sad hearing how much influence the publisher has and how 'out of touch' they seem to be, but at the same time a little reassuring thinking that influence won't be there with indie and crowdfunded games.
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  #36  
Old 03-28-2012, 04:10 AM
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It's funny that you mention the dowry ring quest as that's the one quest that really sticks out for me in all of TQ. It's just really bizarre with all this epic stuff going down with titans and magic and towns getting overrun. I remember wondering if - almost assuming that - the wedding tied into some bigger epic thing that would play a part in the story, that maybe it was a reference to some greek mythology I wasn't familiar with.
I LOVE that quest! Its hilarious! Every time we would do that quest me and my friends would scream in chorus "DA NECKLACE! YOU FOUND EET!"
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After Void(null) left there was basically no point anymore...
  #37  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by medierra View Post
...the game should be designed so that his grandmother would want to play it...
...enemies not use language or build anything that would make them seem like they had more than animal intelligence...
...people might feel wrong killing enemies that displayed any obvious intelligence...
...We also weren't originally allowed to have humans die, ever, in the game and no human corpses...
...but were told that would make the enemies seem too intelligent...
...enemies should seem like noble adversaries, not evil or demonic creatures...
...they were considered too grotesque and scary looking...
...Spirit Mastery was too "Necromancery and evil"....
...This was rejected because it was potentially too religious and people might not want to feel like they were worshiping mythological gods to receive their powers...
...I was told we couldn't have snow on the summit because people might not realize it snowed in Greece...
What a bunch of communists. This level of censorship is embarrassing, it's surprising that Titan Quest is such a good game though and I can only wonder how it might have looked if developers had more freedom.
  #38  
Old 04-05-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorneM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by medierra View Post
...the game should be designed so that his grandmother would want to play it...
...enemies not use language or build anything that would make them seem like they had more than animal intelligence...
...people might feel wrong killing enemies that displayed any obvious intelligence...
...We also weren't originally allowed to have humans die, ever, in the game and no human corpses...
...but were told that would make the enemies seem too intelligent...
...enemies should seem like noble adversaries, not evil or demonic creatures...
...they were considered too grotesque and scary looking...
...Spirit Mastery was too "Necromancery and evil"....
...This was rejected because it was potentially too religious and people might not want to feel like they were worshiping mythological gods to receive their powers...
...I was told we couldn't have snow on the summit because people might not realize it snowed in Greece...
What a bunch of communists. This level of censorship is embarrassing, it's surprising that Titan Quest is such a good game though and I can only wonder how it might have looked if developers had more freedom..
Heh, that reminds me of this comic. I guess web design and game design have a lot in common there. And that, guys, is why we can't have nice things.
  #39  
Old 04-05-2013, 11:08 AM
matthewfarmery matthewfarmery is online now
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Originally Posted by HorneM View Post
What a bunch of communists. This level of censorship is embarrassing, it's surprising that Titan Quest is such a good game though and I can only wonder how it might have looked if developers had more freedom.
well we are going to find out, GD will be that freedom! and yes it took a lot of doing for the team to add stuff in, the expasnion they did have some freedom, but not much,

but in GD, they got all the freedom they could ask for, so we are going to see what TQ would have been like if the devs had total control, OK GD isn't TQ, but you know what I mean, as I think TQ also could have been tonnes better if the devs had more control

but anyway, we are going to have that chance and a means of helping to shape GD, so while it did turn out bad for Iron lore, but on the otherside of the coin, there wouldn't have been Crate or GD if things didn't happen the way that they did

overall, I think we have a lot to be thankful for, I can';t wait for GD, and I know it will be an awesome game! while TQ is another amazing game,but now we look to the future, towards it's spiritual successor and a far better game then TQ will ever be
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  #40  
Old 04-05-2013, 12:05 PM
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you know what I mean
Yes, I know and I already own 2 x Loyalist keys.

Another game well worth supporting IMO is Divinity: Original Sin
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