Crowd Control?

[ASYLUM101]

So, I initially wasn't going to create a thread about this, but I'm bored out of my mind.

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345

This is where the argument came up, and I think it'd be better off in a separate thread.

To summarize; crowd control wasn't too effective in TQ. Yes, it worked, and it was somewhat helpful, but it could have been leagues better. For classes which are SUPER fragile, like say, the ice sharder, or the earth mage(who actually didn't experience this as much as storm), the mobs would normally gain pretty quick and maul you on legendary if you don't time your skills right. Sure, you can mix in dream and throw some slowing distortion waves, or petrify them with distort reality, but both cases aren't sure-fire ways of controlling your environment to ensure the skilled player can protect themselves. The distort realilty is an excellent skill, no doubt, but the range was so short that setting it off at the right time was a challenge. The damage of said skill was enough to hold it on it's own, but that's besides the point.

What I think I'm trying to say is, we need(or I'd like, I don't know how the community will respond) some more dedicated CONTROL spells. Say, nature for instance would've been LOADS better without briar ward, and WITH briar ENTANGLEMENT or something. Something to root your enemies at a distance with some sort of massive plant. That would make it safer for your pets and you to pick them off and allow you to come up with some very interesting strategies.

This is is just a handful of possibilities, but what do you guys think? Crowd control worth it? I'm thinking yes.

[Starkrun]

if a caster goes crowd control you need to make sure its a main focus not a one point wonder to eliminate exploitable skill use...

And i agree some form of stun or wall, a good snare spell or root spell would be great... or a high aggro summonable that works.. low DPS very very high defense, its entire job to hold and take agroo...

I would love a pet like this.. kinda like the Carnagor in Hellgate: London, fully upgraded that beast could hold aggro for days!

[ASYLUM101]

You know, you mention HG:L alot, haha. I'm assuming you're one of the few(along with myself) who actually enjoyed that game.

But yeah, basically things that would scale REALLY well but not be completely useless early on. A good example of something GREAT for controlling is like you said, a wall. The necromancer's bone wall and prison were excellent skills in D2, very fun and cool, and they did a pretty good job. At least, I think they did. I never used the skill, but my my brother did and would always trap the enemies far from us when we were low on hp. Good times!

You could even go as far as doing something like the sorc, and summoning a firewall to discourage enemies from coming through. They *could* pass through, and risk taking tons of damage, haha.

[eisprinzessin]

I actually gave my Sage "Ice Shard" in normal Hades for crowd control purposes. But he is not super fragile. Until then he lacked a decent AOE attack.

"briar ENTANGLEMENT" sounds good - druids in WoW have such a skill.

I never tried "Ensnare" from hunting ... if it could ensnare multiple enemies. But the way it is, it is just good for the mobs to hinder you from fleeing.

"War Horn" is effective - and given to a class usually wearing sturdy armour. Other classes would benefit more.

There are several other skills, which can stun or slow down mobs and buy you some time, but that's not exactly what you, ASYLUM101, are looking for, is it?

[yerkyerk]

I say pets. Lots of pets - like the necro in D2. Not only is it heaps of fun, it's an effective way of crowd control. The few pets you could have at once in TQ disappointed me and they were with too little for really effective crowd control.

In TQ, Fear was a fun way of crowd control (although it scaled very poorly).

What would be cool is skills to push back your opponents (there was such an AoE skill in Fable which threw all nearby opponents on the ground - it did no damage I think, but was pretty buttrock to use).

In Torchlight, the Ember Lance was pretty cool for this purpose, iirc it was a straight beam that travelled through your opponents (I believe the pushback function was unfortunately heavily nerfed in the first patch).

[Confuted]

perhaps you could have a skill that controls a pet plant. Just off the top of my head, how about a plant that resembles a venus fly trap that can crawl underground and grab onto things with its roots or jaws. Perhaps give it a passive skill that gives it poison damage or thorns. Could even have the plant deal life leech damage and the health is dispersed through the team equally or distributed by varying health needs (low health, threat level, just enough health regen to live while taking burn damage or poison, some sort of priority system to benefit a group).

by making the crowd control a pet, exploiting it won't be so easy.

[yerkyerk]

Sounds a lot like one of the druid's pets in D2
http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp...#poisoncreeper
Although that doesn't trap or heal..

But a single trap that traps enemies at random doesn't seem like a very effective way of crowd control. Either it'd capture everything and be insanely overpowered, or it wouldn let a bunch through, making it very unreliable.

[Confuted]

ah yes, i had a feeling my idea resembled something from a game I'd played before; been so long since I played D2.

Anyways, maybe the trap pet has a reach of the whole screen to make it more effective at crowd control? and maybe it doesn't completely ensnare the enemy. It could be that it slows them down by % but it could be tech to completely immobilize/stun a certain number of opponents by the use of its jaws.

[medierra]

I think the main problem with crowd-control skills in TQ is that I designed and balanced them based too much on my MMORPG experience. In most MMORPGs you're fighting less enemies that individually pose a much greater threat in encounters that last much longer. Being able to remove one enemy from the combat for even a few seconds can be the difference between survival or defeat.

Because of this experience, I think I over-valued crowd control in TQ and was probably too conservative in the skills I designed. In D2 I never used crowd control skills since they never seemed necessary.

Based on what I've learned from TQ, I realize that I just need to be a bit more generous in doling out crowd control abilities with larger durations that effect more targets and are easier to quickly fire off.

[ASYLUM101]

I actually gave my Sage "Ice Shard" in normal Hades for crowd control purposes. But he is not super fragile. Until then he lacked a decent AOE attack.

Er, you don't see lightning blast, spellbreaker or scattershot/puncture shot/volley as good AoE attacks? :P Ice Shards are fun and all but... not really what I'd call crowd control, you get a tiny bit of slowing right? That's about it, and with only a few points invested, I don't think you'll get enough slowing power, and the damage is quite pathetic.

I never tried "Ensnare" from hunting ... if it could ensnare multiple enemies. But the way it is, it is just good for the mobs to hinder you from fleeing.

Oh man, ensnare is awful. It really needs instant recharge and a longer lasting timer, or a much larger AoE. Currently it's just grab one guy at a time and ping him to death, but you almost always have to worry about the what, 5 other guys? Not very controlling at all.

"War Horn" is effective - and given to a class usually wearing sturdy armour. Other classes would benefit more.

Well, war horn is decent at high levels where the AoE covers the whole screen. At lower levels, not so much. Very good panic button but for a crowd control skill, it's not the best.

There are several other skills, which can stun or slow down mobs and buy you some time, but that's not exactly what you, ASYLUM101, are looking for, is it?

Not at all, I'm talking about stopping them from afar. Like I mentioned about the entanglement, or something similar. Stop them from afar so casters/archers can do something at a distance without having to worry about getting mauled. I know all the skills and their usefulness in TQ, lol, trust me. I've been over that game way too many times.

I say pets. Lots of pets - like the necro in D2. Not only is it heaps of fun, it's an effective way of crowd control. The few pets you could have at once in TQ disappointed me and they were with too little for really effective crowd control.

Didn't medierra say already this wasn't gonna be done? I loved the necro in D2, having the army of what, 24 skeletons was funny as hell. Albeit a bit useless on certain bosses(Diablo always one shotted ALL my skellies with his AoE attacks.) But yeah, pets are a good method of crowd control. Control the crowd with another crowd! haha.

In TQ, Fear was a fun way of crowd control (although it scaled very poorly).

VERY poorly, not to mention it was somewhat annoying. I do enjoy casting fear on dudes when I'm about to die though. So, yeah, good form of controlling the crowd.

What would be cool is skills to push back your opponents (there was such an AoE skill in Fable which threw all nearby opponents on the ground - it did no damage I think, but was pretty buttrock to use)

In Torchlight, the Ember Lance was pretty cool for this purpose, iirc it was a straight beam that travelled through your opponents (I believe the pushback function was unfortunately heavily nerfed in the first patch).

.

I dunno what skill you're talking about in Fable, but knockback/knockdown is something that would be cool and pretty useful. Imagine earth mastery with a shockwave ability! How kickass would that be for a melee/earth user, rush in, shockwave their asses then beat them down while they stumble back to their feet.

perhaps you could have a skill that controls a pet plant. Just off the top of my head, how about a plant that resembles a venus fly trap that can crawl underground and grab onto things with its roots or jaws. Perhaps give it a passive skill that gives it poison damage or thorns. Could even have the plant deal life leech damage and the health is dispersed through the team equally or distributed by varying health needs (low health, threat level, just enough health regen to live while taking burn damage or poison, some sort of priority system to benefit a group).

by making the crowd control a pet, exploiting it won't be so easy.

Pet plant, haha. I've got that in my mod! Except he doesn't leech guys, but he does hold enemies! But yeah, that is similar to the druid's creeper, although yours seems a bit overpowered in comparison. :P

and the pet that can trap sounds like something I tried to do in TQ for my mod as well(as a method of crowd control) but it didn't pan out well... interesting idea, but like yerk mentioned, unreliable or overpowered. The way you can kinda control it's overpoweredness is severely limit it's lifespan. Make it last like 5 seconds, trap everything real quick to give you a chance to ... run or cast a strong spell, dunno.


ahahaha medierra, I knew I had something against MMOs for a reason! :P
haha... well, glad to see you are evolving as a developer.