General considerations about gameplay flow and mechanics (warning - long winded post)

[BAWZ]

@alexei

LOL, thank you!

[eisprinzessin]

Originally Posted by BAWZ

So, what could be the recipe for those great moments we have while playing ARPGs?

An often used recipe is easy to learn, but difficult to master. For TQ it means, that you level up slower and skilling becomes less effective the longer you play. The longer you play a character the less positive feedback you receive. While this might be considered a chore you do not necessarily need to adjust this - just bring in a different incentive. I feel that crafting, farming for loot, new bosses, puzzles and quests fall short. A better option might be to unlock new areas.

What I'm looking for is a new element, which substitutes for/replaces the original excitement you get from building up your character.

[Mind Dragon]

Action influencing skills, both character and enemy, movement evasion for ranged players and nice enemy animation -- with good balancing.

In TQ, it can be not good to lose a trinket -- especially if it resists vitality damage, stun and/or has demons blood. Instead of being well off, it wouldnt change things to be harder but nearly impossible. Not all of us want to artificially restart areas to regain items by farming.

[Gumshoe]

What about ranks after reaching the maximum level, i.e. Lieutenant, corporal (just examples), and you get a new rank each time you finish a playthough fo the whole game, or for each level you increase after end game level?

That way, instead of just playing through the game again to go from level 70 -> 71 and farm items, you get a rank added instead (and maybe even permanent random bonuses like +1000HP, +200DA, +100damage), like Diablo's titles for beating nightmare/hell, or like CoD's rank system after reaching level 50 prestige. In this case the player could even have their gear reset, but stay the same level and all monsters are bumped up, starting the hunt for new awesome gear all over again.

Originally Posted by Mind Dragon

In TQ, it can be not good to lose a trinket -- especially if it resists vitality damage, stun and/or has demons blood.

Would that not be good incentive not to die though, slightly better than losing your character altogether? It should be easy enough to find new gear, maybe not quite as powerful, but enough to keep you going and trying damn harder not to die!

[NZSpy]

What about adding a achievement/rewards system? Rewards could even be cosmetic items you could add to your character. It would be another thing to strive for in the game. they could be constructed in a way that you wouldn't have to play through the whole game to achieve them, esp. if they go for the open approach as opposed to the linear version.

[Zeboyd Games]

Since people have mentioned score systems, how about adding a Score Attack mode? Basically, you'd pick a challenge (which would be a small chunk taken from the main game), build your character (different starting LV & equipment choices depending on the challenge) and have to try to beat it with the most points (points being gained for speed, killing enemies, avoiding death, etc.). Depending on the challenge, there could various twists to the regular gameplay like having different goals (reach a certain area, defeat X number of enemies, survive for X minutes with constantly spawning enemies, etc.), limitations (can't use heal potions, can't use magic, no armor, etc.) or bonuses (+x% to certain damage type, invincibility, no energy cost on abilities, etc.).

It would offer a more fast-paced take on the traditional hack & slash gameplay, give a chance for leaderboard chasing fun, let people experiment easily with different builds, and probably wouldn't be horribly difficult to implement since you're just using assets from the regular game.

[Gumshoe]

^ I like it!

[eisprinzessin]

Ranks and achievements are IMHO a chore and will just result in unwanted grinding. I thought about options for the element I've been looking for - had to discard some, which are out of scope for an ARPG in general and Crate in particular - and came to the follow conclusion: Once your characters development slows down factions and a dynamic world, which reflects the outcome of your actions, can get more attention and become an additional major motivation.

• Sites are rebuild/destroyed
• Sites are lost to/recovered from the enemies
• Places/areas look devastated/flourish
• Emerging business/short supplies (choice of items at a vendor)
• NPCs are out of commission for some time
• NPCs need to move to a different place
• NPCs die/survive
• You turn an enemy/lose an ally
• Multiple endings for the main quest and/or side quests

These NPCs can be any from regular survivors, to merchants, wardens, quest givers and companions.

[Thecla]

Originally Posted by medierra

So, yeah, we're thinking about doing some things differently. Let me ask you this... How would you feel if there wasn't a linear main story you had to follow but instead there were a bunch of more-involved, multi-step "sidequests" that you could do? What if progression was gated more by the power of your character / your skill as a player instead of a specific series of quest-steps you had to complete in order?

I basically like this idea, though it may be hard to pull off. I did find TQ too linear, which made it feel sort of confining.

As far as sidequests go, I think the original Hellgate:London is an example of what not to do: it had a very linear progression from hub to hub, with a lot of quest/side-quests originating from each hub, before you could go to the next one. It was somehow dispiriting, and gave you no feeling of getting anywhere, to get to a new hub and then have to spend a lot of time going in and out from the same hub on quest after quest. The HG:L Stonehenge expansion, where you could go to various areas, collect boss heads as the whim struck you, and work up to a main boss was a more open-ended and rewarding structure. There was a bit more of a sense of wandering about in the world.

I also found playing the original Diablo "living-off-the-land" style enjoyable --- you made no use of any town services (healing, buying items, potions, scrolls etc.) and had to find everything yourself in the dungeons. That gave some incentive to go farm some area for potions if you were short, look for shrines to repair items, as well as clear laz and diablo for higher-lvl loot.

I guess you may still need a main plot line, but branching it out and mixing up the areas to give players others things to do seems like a good thing.

[BAWZ]

Every gameplay element present should be interactive and fun, from start to finish. As eisprinzessin said skilling progression could slow down to a crawl and things like loot, ranks and achievements could be all too much passive, possibly ending in an eternal grind. Though achievements like the ones mentioned earlier by Gumshoe could be fun to do. Like doing a pacifist run in NetHack. It can be fun because it makes you try new strategies, giving a whole new perspective of play.

As I see it, titles and bonuses could risk adding more false progression to a genre that already has a lot. You get stronger and stronger, and get huge bonuses too. But the monsters HAVE to scale, if not the gameplay would be insanely boring and unchallenging. I like, for example, the direction Diablo 3 has taken in this regard. No points, skills adjusted with runes, etc.. Yes, it's simpler, but it's the whole points system which is really unneeded. Then again, if medierra will do what he's suggesting, a point-based system could still be used. Depending on the build you do, you can access different areas on the map. As it is now, it's useless in Diablo and Torchlight, and only marginally so in Titan Quest (this because of the fact you can virtually make anything from your character). To cut it short, in a linear game, if monsters get stronger too you effectively are not. You could very well be always at the same level.

About losing trinkets. It surely is a softer version of hardcore mode, and if properly implemented could be an interesting element. I'll try to explain this better. I am currently trying out Throne Of Darkness. In this game, at least in the starting phase (I don't know how the endgame is balanced, currently), items breaking and resource scarcity force you to plan how you use your resources. In Diablo 2, in the improbable case you have one of your items broken, you just go to town and repair it. Even with the absurd prices later in the game you don't have to worry much about it. Titan Quest and Torchlight did it way better by simply removing it, then. But a system that makes you think about risking to lose your stuff is certainly an interesting alternative/added bonus to hardcore mode.

Score attack mode is an interesting idea, maybe akin to what medierra was referring to as survival mode? But I think I'd like integrating the elements of character building in the actual gameplay, instead of before. Well, actually it's an interesting idea nonetheless, but I'd like it to be one of two options.

The risk of dynamic world elements lies in having too much generic/placeholder stuff happening that ruins the mood of the game. As much as I like Depths Of Peril and Din's Curse, games that rely heavily on those concepts, I find them a bit stale after some time. I mean, Diablo and Titan Quest have not complex storylines, but that little bit of atmosphere (and good graphics to boot) helps A LOT. Added complexity could take away a lot from game pacing, too. So, they surely are interesting elements, but they have to be carefully constructed. Well, everything must be carefully constructed, but from a developer point of view the more is not necessarily the merrier. Lots of extra work and a bigger chance to make mistakes.

Thecla, how much I miss the "living off the land" feel too! Particularly with roguelikes, I find it so much fun. It's part of the reason I love them. Unpredictability, planning, risk. This is missing sooo much from current ARPGs. They're balanced to play the way they do, though, so the feeling that it is missing comes more from a knowing their "forefathers" more than finding them too easy or unbalanced. This feature is certainly harder to implement and makes for a more difficult and possibly frustrating game, but I long to see elements of it in modern and actiony-er games. You really should try one of the games I linked in the first post, Transcendence. It's awesome.

BTW, thanks to you all, it's becoming a fun thread to read.

P.S. - I've even decided to put to sleep my initial stinginess and pre-order the game, "courtesy of" the great support and community.