#1  
Old 05-30-2013, 04:47 AM
Cake Jasey Cake Jasey is offline
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Question Are Ravens OP?

I'll keep things short in case everyone already knows.

I've seen other comments about familiars and balance before, so here's my disclaimer: I'm on my first play-through, and all that's relevant about my build is that I didn't put points in anything until I maxed Raven first for the Occultist tree.

I'm now lv 12 and the Raven one-hits non-boss enemies, two-hits enemy variants, and will make short work of bosses while I kite in circles like a useless lump.

The punchline is, the Raven's been doing this ever since I put my [edit: my memory and counting are equally bad, sorry] eighth rank in it at lv 4.

I can appreciate that a lot of players wouldn't bother to wander in circles while their pet kills everything, but keep in mind I did build a melee character. If I had a good pistol I could just spam the attack hotkey and I wouldn't even have to aim beyond cardinal directions, much less move.

tl;dr putting any points at all in Raven seems to make the game ridiculously easy.

Last edited by Cake Jasey; 05-31-2013 at 06:17 AM. Reason: I can't count
  #2  
Old 05-30-2013, 04:55 AM
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Same with the hellhound skill when it comes to being easy.

I think the idea usually is you're putting more points into the mastery tree or different skills so the damage isn't as high. If you invest highly into most skills the damage is really great until later in the game (other acts and such) where gear is needed to sustain that good damage.

Only thing Familiar/raven isn't good is shooting and pathing, otherwise the skill is fine but could be fine tuned a lot.
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  #3  
Old 05-30-2013, 05:18 AM
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ASYLUM101 ASYLUM101 is offline
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One thing I have to say about the pets that I don't like - they don't' give you any bonuses at X level, as they did in Titan Quest. It made it nice to level certain pets, like the Liche King or the Wolves, as they unlocked new skills or a secondary summon (2 wolves vs 1).

I was half expecting to see the raven have some kind of hidden skill or a second summon for the hellhound...
  #4  
Old 05-30-2013, 05:24 AM
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I think it is too early to tell. You have seen at best the first third of the first difficulty and already your raven is as good as maxed. So while the enemies will get stronger, your raven will stay flat rather soon (except for potential increases you get for higher difficulty levels).

Also, as you said, many people would not exactly enjoy that kind of build
  #5  
Old 05-30-2013, 05:36 AM
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i.n.s.a.n.e i.n.s.a.n.e is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
One thing I have to say about the pets that I don't like - they don't' give you any bonuses at X level, as they did in Titan Quest. It made it nice to level certain pets, like the Liche King or the Wolves, as they unlocked new skills or a secondary summon (2 wolves vs 1).

I was half expecting to see the raven have some kind of hidden skill or a second summon for the hellhound...
Good point, ASYLUM101! I was kinda disappointed as well. I really loved that in TQ, or TL2 for that matter (the Tiers).

Well, let's hope they make some changes to this, it should not be that hard in this case (even if it was like level10 - 2 ravens - split dmg between the two, just whatever, but to make it interesting a bit to level them up, not just level them up to ultimate level to receive something, but something along the way to that point as well). =)


Anyway, @OP - the same was in TQ. The pets' damage will not be that high later on, and I don't mean higher difficulties, but later parts of the game.
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  #6  
Old 05-30-2013, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i.n.s.a.n.e View Post
Good point, ASYLUM101! I was kinda disappointed as well. I really loved that in TQ, or TL2 for that matter (the Tiers).

Well, let's hope they make some changes to this, it should not be that hard in this case (even if it was like level10 - 2 ravens - split dmg between the two, just whatever, but to make it interesting a bit to level them up, not just level them up to ultimate level to receive something, but something along the way to that point as well). =)


Anyway, @OP - the same was in TQ. The pets' damage will not be that high later on, and I don't mean higher difficulties, but later parts of the game.
I dunno about two ravens, since they both would have a heal and lightning skill.. but maybe some other stuff, like a debuff or a shield skill, or some CC? maybe he can call some "rain" or some weather effect in an area, ala squall and slow targets within. *shrug* I really don't care, just something to give me some incentive to level him, to make me feel like his power is growing and to see it myself, not just see that his attacks hit for 200 instead of 100.

Same for the hellhound.
  #7  
Old 05-30-2013, 07:54 PM
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Now that is a feature that i want to see.(Got that in tq, it must be in grim dawn or i think it's a back step and maybe some other things to add this feature to improve it ? )
  #8  
Old 05-30-2013, 08:18 PM
Zachafella Zachafella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cake Jasey View Post
I'll keep things short in case everyone already knows.

I've seen other comments about familiars and balance before, so here's my disclaimer: I'm on my first play-through, and all that's relevant about my build is that I didn't put points in anything until I maxed Raven first for the Occultist tree.

I'm now lv 12 and the Raven one-hits non-boss enemies, two hits enemy variants, and will make short work of bosses while I kite in circles like a useless lump.

The punchline is, the Raven's been doing this ever since I put my third rank in it.

I can appreciate that a lot of players wouldn't bother to wander in circles while their pet kills everything, but keep in mind I did build a melee character. If I had a good pistol I could just spam the attack hotkey and I wouldn't even have to aim beyond cardinal directions, much less move.

tl;dr putting any points at all in Raven seems to make the game ridiculously easy.

I've played both builds, maxed raven and maxed hellhound. I feel that maxed hellhound is more efficient.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrhg-682cqY

Last edited by Zachafella; 05-30-2013 at 08:27 PM.
  #9  
Old 05-31-2013, 06:13 AM
Cake Jasey Cake Jasey is offline
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First off, thanks for all the replies, really gave me some solid insight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachafella View Post
I've played both builds, maxed raven and maxed hellhound. I feel that maxed hellhound is more efficient.
I understand the argument for late-game efficiency, but given the amount of time it takes for the Raven to start to plateau (one-hitting targets from lv 4 to lv 14 and no deaths yet) is its early-game power still acceptable?

I never really went for the "pet passive" idea but is that what it's meant for, tapering early game power while preserving late-game utility? Or is that not how it works?

Also, given things like

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMasked View Post
If you invest highly into most skills the damage is really great until later in the game (other acts and such) where gear is needed to sustain that good damage.
I feel like when playing an ARPG that's all you're ever concerned with; the best way to deal the most damage at the time (isn't that why we keep buying the best weapon we can afford, then ditching it for something better? etc) I realize it's not quite parallel in terms of skills but still- are "easy-button" familiars kosher if they allow you to skate through early conflict until you have the loot to sustain later acts but without the early struggle to earn it?

And let's not forget

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMasked View Post
Only thing Familiar/raven isn't good is shooting and pathing, otherwise the skill is fine but could be fine tuned a lot.
Imagine a world in which the insta-kill Raven actually hits the target more than 1/3 or 1/4 tries.

But seriously if the Raven actually hit things you might as well not have bosses until the damage falls off. Is it really okay for there to be zero credible threats to a build until level 15(+)?

This time I'll actually subscribe to my own thread so I can read the responses faster
  #10  
Old 05-31-2013, 07:44 AM
Torin Torin is offline
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All early game skills if maxed early are OP. B. Cocktail is even more OP.

And there is no real downside to it. At high levels just pay to take out all levels from that skill (in case of raven keep one) and put them all into some more useful high level skill.
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