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  • #31
    Originally posted by Zabith View Post
    the natural scenery changes only for every new game.
    I can't image that all randomised data for plants, rocks and camps will be saved, so that you can re-visit the same randomised scenery, if you return with your character to a place. That would blow up your save game data ... at least I think so.

    Besides, regarding camps - if you leave the game and continue later, that's how enemies respawn. That's when we want them to appear at a different location.

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    • #32
      I understand about camps and enemies spawning in different spots thats how i would like it to, but say i save my game standing beside a tree and a rock that i use as a land mark it would be kind of silly if come back to my game and that tree and rock has moved to a different spot. But however its implemented im sure the game is going to be awsome.

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      • #33
        It would make sense that like TQ when you restart a save you are at a spawn point and all randomized aspects of your game are different and the fog of war is reinstated. This is only my guess though.

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        • #34
          Yes that would make sense, forgot about spawn points , its been awhile since ive played TQIT ever since the map i was working on for over a year Lands of Grimgoria got wiped out I just couldnt bring myself to start over or play for that matter and since i found out about Grim Dawn i thought id wait and hopefully get my hands on the editor for Grim Dawn and start fresh.

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          • #35
            Please make it as randomize as possible.
            The only thing I hate for TQ is the constant map, it really reduced the re-playable of TQ a LOT.

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            • #36
              Hmm, I never had a problem with TQ having constant maps, didn't stop me from replaying the game to death (I still do). Compared to Diablo 2, TQ maps had much more detail and care put into them. Besides, after hundreds/thousands of hours, you recognize the patterns and map pieces in Diablo 2, decreasing the "exploration" aspect.

              But a well done map randomization, even only partial, would definitely help the replayability aspect of the game and would be a great plus, I'm not denying that. I just think that it isn't that important for replayability as for example loot/monster randomization/variation and multiple ways to build your character.

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              • #37
                Randomly "generate natural scenery, enemy spawn locations, human camps, and loot chests" + "quest-givers" -> if all these come true I'll be like *\o/*\o/ *\o/*\o/ *\o/*.

                If you make also random dungeons then it'll be complete.

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                • #38
                  The one thing that killed my joy in any hack n' slash is static maps. Any D2 clone I could only get as far as the beginning of the second difficulty and it began to feel real stale. As beautiful as the TQ scenery was, I just couldn't do it. I'm excited to see some randomization in the maps. Please do more than just the scenery. The paths idea sounds like an excellent one to me.

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                  • #39
                    Thank you so much, this is a great blend. Do you know if the objective locations have been randomized also?

                    Say you have to go to a cave to kill X .... can that cave be in random locations and when you get in the cave is X in a random location?

                    He mentions NPC's and camps, but I didn't know if this applied to those with quest attached.

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                    • #40
                      Wow, you guys really are taking this to a whole new level!
                      I think ideas like this as well as pathing blockers are truly the kind of innovations that show that you love to do what you are doing, finding new ways to do it for the fun of the game.

                      keep this up and ya'll may see an amazing release of a new genre/style/income like never before!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by eisprinzessin View Post
                        I can't image that all randomised data for plants, rocks and camps will be saved, so that you can re-visit the same randomised scenery, if you return with your character to a place. That would blow up your save game data ... at least I think so.
                        Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, not necessarily (or rather, it depends how random your random generation is). The randomized data is going to be generated from a unique seed number, which will be specific for your game. From this seed, you'll generate additional random numbers to place rocks, plants, etc. (that's probably a very naive overview, but I'd be surprised if the actual mechanics were substantially different). Now, if these random numbers can be generated in the same, predictable order every time from a given seed, you can generate the level procedurally any time you want, you just need to save a seed specific to the level and to know which algorithm to use. Next time the player returns to an area already generated/visited before, you would be able to recreate the location of the various landscape from the seed, in exactly the same way the level was initially generated.

                        Now, I have no idea of how much data this would represent, and how feasible it would be to generate the level every time in this fashion. On the other hand, if you're going to generate the level every time (as opposed to loading it from disk), you don't really lose anything by doing it this way.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MercurialAlchemist View Post
                          Now, I have no idea of how much data this would represent, and how feasible it would be to generate the level every time in this fashion. On the other hand, if you're going to generate the level every time (as opposed to loading it from disk), you don't really lose anything by doing it this way.
                          This is how other games also deal with this concept... or at least some games. Civilization for instance is using this and the world is generated each time from a different seed. In such cases it would be a good idea if the players at least can know the seed number, and is able to inject it manually if they wish to recreate the same world on a second playthrough or just recommend it to other players.

                          The bigger issue which I see with this approach is QA and testing: the more randomized the world can get, the larger the number of test you'd have to run in order to make sure that the results are consistent for each playthrough, since you might miss some corner cases where the randomization resulted in either an unplayable world, or just a boring/non-aesthetically pleasing to play one. This can increase replayability, but perhaps somewhat on the expense of art direction.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Guy View Post
                            This is how other games also deal with this concept... or at least some games. Civilization for instance is using this and the world is generated each time from a different seed. In such cases it would be a good idea if the players at least can know the seed number, and is able to inject it manually if they wish to recreate the same world on a second playthrough or just recommend it to other players.

                            The bigger issue which I see with this approach is QA and testing: the more randomized the world can get, the larger the number of test you'd have to run in order to make sure that the results are consistent for each playthrough, since you might miss some corner cases where the randomization resulted in either an unplayable world, or just a boring/non-aesthetically pleasing to play one. This can increase replayability, but perhaps somewhat on the expense of art direction.
                            Sure, it makes for an infinite number of possibilities, but it also depends on what kind of things you randomize. Do you randomize the shape of the room, or just its location?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Guy View Post
                              The bigger issue which I see with this approach is QA and testing: the more randomized the world can get, the larger the number of test you'd have to run in order to make sure that the results are consistent for each playthrough, since you might miss some corner cases where the randomization resulted in either an unplayable world, or just a boring/non-aesthetically pleasing to play one. This can increase replayability, but perhaps somewhat on the expense of art direction.
                              I'm hopeful that there'll be certain "safety" features that will prevent the randomization from causing an unplayable world, as well as aesthetically. The issue is making sure that the world isn't overburdened with content or underwhelming in terms of content.

                              You don't want to run into an npc with a side quest every 5 steps, but neither do you want to meet one and not see any others for the next few hours.

                              D3 handles this quite well, though the landscapes get boring quickly (because it relies mostly on static landscapes, which have very minor variations to terrain and side quests, as well as locations). I always end up hoping I get to a more linear area in that game, as there's nothing to really -do- around the in game world, unlike in TQ which did the static landscape thing pretty well if I might say so myself.

                              A key thing that made TQ interesting though was just how things built into each other. transitioning from an open plain into a cave, tomb or maze, and finding enemies that are -wearing- the loot they're going to drop is great. I remember when I found my first Obsidian armor piece on a Jackalman I had slain, it felt good to say the least.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by medierra View Post
                                Here is a peak at the way they are configured in the editor. Basically you created a database file for each setpiece that you want to place and it contains a bunch of fields where you can specify...
                                Have you considered adjusting the spawn weight for nearby objects?
                                Something like...

                                Tree, weight 50
                                If existing Object.Class(tree) is within range 500, increase spawn weight by 20.


                                For instance, a rare spawn of a thorny thicket could pop with a rather low chance of 10% but have a Nearby.Spawn.Weight of 70.
                                The overall chance of getting the thicket would be low but if it spawns, it is very likely to spawn multiple items.
                                The "child" spawns could have a generic spawn % of zero so the total spawn chance of the cluster is only controlled by the "parent" shrubbery.

                                Underbrush "filler" shrubs could spawn out in the open but have a higher chance near trees.


                                This should lead to patches of trees (or other vegetation) instead of "just" a predefined, random saturation.
                                Last edited by Gazz; 05-24-2012, 07:16 PM.
                                totus vestri castrum es nostrum possessia

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