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  • Originally posted by Father Squid View Post
    Such as? I was pretty happy with some of the goals since I thought they could definitely bring some new / unplanned content to the game... but now I'm wondering what others feel might be/should have been... I did notice some new tiers with unique content...
    Maybe I was spoiled by The Most Epic Stretch Goal Campaign I've Ever Seen On Kickstarter but just in general, I was hoping to see some loftier goals in place.

    Edit: I didn't notice the new tiers, trying to spot them currently. Can you identify them specifically? I think I'm a bit lost.

    Edit: I see em.
    Last edited by Grimspoon; 05-11-2012, 10:56 PM.
    Legendary Fan Edition Supporter

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    • sorry to say but i do not support the idea of these goals... seems like basically content is limited to how much money they rake in.. wonder what would of happened if they raised several million like wasteland..

      don't forget about all the money that can be generated after release.. perhaps limiting content now may hurt later on.

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      • Originally posted by koovan View Post
        They had a great tag line, "Keep Hope Alive". They extended the game to almost everyone e.g. including mac and pc etc. They shamelessly used their contacts in the industry to promote their underdog game. They made it personal to backers by making it seem impossible by,in my estimation, poor planning. In the end I'd be surprised if they can really produce something that such a disparate crowd will be satisfied with. I think the extraordinary thing is that so many people committed so much for so little - but that will happen also on Kickstarter. Once celebrity status is established then anything is possible - I suspect GD will not become such a project and every mile of this fundraising road will have to be walked. It saddens me a little that sometimes celebrity or simple emotional manipulation outweighs other qualities that I value more but int he end, I too am a victim of solipsism.

        Edit to say that I have added my own tag line or signature: The night is darkest before the Grim Dawn! Perhaps we can keep the Kickstarter comments going with a mixture of pithy and encouraging comments.

        .
        I think you've got most of it right... the "#keep hope alive" campaign was a stroke of genius. It united people. No doubt pulling in Hayter and Hale helped, but I think it was the overall idea that "it couldn't be done" that helped push it. It became about beating the odds I think, and people wanting to be a part of that. They added 3,222 new pledges on the last day, 5234 over the final three. Most of these pledges were at the minimum level, so it wasn't like people were jumping in with both feet. We saw the same sort of reactionary pledging with Starlight Inception.

        The thing with Grim Dawn is that we are already fully funded, and are now going after stretch goals. We are in a better place I think because of that. Better fully funded and working on stretch goals then worrying down to the last 5 hours of the campaign. Remember, even with the final rush they are only 11% over their original goal - while we are trending at being 53% over (in terms of real dollars, we already are over the original amount by the same amount Republique finished with :P). I don't think we'll see the same kind of tidal wave that swept Republique to full funding, but I do think we will see our own wave of support in the final couple days of the project. I've witnessed it in almost every project I've backed so far. Even Steve Jackson's Ogre - which has been fully funded for weeks - saw a good surge of new pledges in the final two days as people finally got off the fence and anted up.

        It will be interesting to see what happens with Grim Dawn - but I honestly do expect that we'll see that last surge of backers as well
        Last edited by Shoganai; 05-12-2012, 01:58 AM.
        "Sleep with one eye open, gripping your pillow tight."
        proud owner of both a Loyalist and Patron Edition key.

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        • Originally posted by Grimspoon View Post
          You're just not fair. You request stretching goals like a project that has got over x46 times (4600%!) of an initial goal from a project that just got close to 120%. I am pretty sure that if GD will get over $12M - you will see miracles and wonders in new goals as well. But let's be realistic - new goals are just fair and incentive to players. I'd much more like to see dual pistols or two-handed weapons or new bosses than new box design or T-shirts or something else not related directly to in-game content.
          Last edited by Raven; 05-12-2012, 02:12 AM.
          My GD videos appear here:
          http://www.youtube.com/user/RavenGrimDawn

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          • Originally posted by sebo View Post
            sorry to say but i do not support the idea of these goals... seems like basically content is limited to how much money they rake in.. wonder what would of happened if they raised several million like wasteland..
            I don't know how familiar you are with game design but yes, content is always limited with how much money is put into development It's a bitter truth and you have to simply admit it and live with it.
            About several millions - that could change the overall picture dramatically. I'm really sorry people are tend to support emotions or some imaginary nostalgia about past projects or names much more than the real and promising project. However, we've got the goal and still rising. It's a good deal and we get really a good product for such a humble money - $280k are almost nothing in terms or serious game design.

            don't forget about all the money that can be generated after release.. perhaps limiting content now may hurt later on.
            I guess we should talk about that after release, isn't it? For now, people preorder basing just on the info and not having anything to play at all. They think about something, aren't they? Let's see the final product before concluding if it will hurt or not.
            My GD videos appear here:
            http://www.youtube.com/user/RavenGrimDawn

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            • sorry to say but i do not support the idea of these goals... seems like basically content is limited to how much money they rake in.. wonder what would of happened if they raised several million like wasteland..

              don't forget about all the money that can be generated after release.. perhaps limiting content now may hurt later on.
              You're wrong and you're misreading people's intentions. I think it's nice that they can give out tentative goals for what they could do with the extra $$, AFTER we've already given them more than they originally asked for.

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              • Originally posted by Grimspoon View Post
                Hate to be "that guy", but most of those stretch goals should really just be "goals" that the devs automatically strive for during the development process.

                Was sort of expecting Crate to incentivize their stretch goals with unique or interesting content per backer.
                Not sure what you mean by unique per backer, that they let you pick one of three t-shirts and stuff like that ? Also, to me more game is the best incentive there is

                Most of what Ogre did to me also is 'more content' (other than 'better packaging', granted I did not read every single goal) you do not seem to like.

                Personally I am not sure what else other than more content you can reasonably expect... esp. from a digital distribution game where packaging simply does not exist

                Yes, of course you would expect more content if they exceed their goal, since the same content did not just magically get more expensive just because you have more money available.
                What the stretch goals do is spell out some of the extra content that you would get at each goal, rather than just generically saying 'the more you pledge, the bigger the world gets'.
                Last edited by mamba; 05-12-2012, 05:28 AM.

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                • Originally posted by sebo View Post
                  sorry to say but i do not support the idea of these goals... seems like basically content is limited to how much money they rake in.. wonder what would of happened if they raised several million like wasteland...
                  Hm, what kind of goals did you have in mind then ? Of course content is limited by money, creating content costs money after all....

                  don't forget about all the money that can be generated after release.. perhaps limiting content now may hurt later on.
                  Well, that is what expansions are for... you can only create so much content before you are out of money and have to start selling your game to generate income to expand it later on

                  Of course more content in the initial game will always be better, but since content is not free there is a very real limit of how much content there can be
                  Last edited by mamba; 05-12-2012, 05:28 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by mamba View Post
                    Not sure what you mean by unique per backer, that they let you pick one of three t-shirts and stuff like that ? Also, to me more game is the best incentive there is
                    Well, I didn't mean physical goods. I support digital distribution and haven't bought any physical package from Crate.

                    I guess I was more or less looking for something more unique / interesting in game, given to Kickstarter backers. Not just a list of things that the devs should be striving to include in game anyhow.

                    Not trying to lash out at Crate or anything, whatever they do is going to be great. But they reached their goal with time to spare and their numbers continue to grow. For the stretch goals I was just hoping to see something a little more inspiring.

                    Edit: I'm not faulting Crate for anything, I think perhaps my expectations (for the stretch goals) were set a bit too high.
                    Last edited by Grimspoon; 05-12-2012, 03:43 AM.
                    Legendary Fan Edition Supporter

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                    • Hate to be "that guy", but most of those stretch goals should really just be "goals" that the devs automatically strive for during the development process.
                      Maybe I was spoiled by The Most Epic Stretch Goal Campaign I've Ever Seen On Kickstarter but just in general, I was hoping to see some loftier goals in place.
                      Unfortunately, we just can't strive for something that we don't have the resources to produce and we can't set loftier goals that would cost more to achieve than the extra money we'd have to build them. We've already been striving to do all we can in Grim Dawn for 2.5 years and we've built a lot of cool features in that time. Now we're trying to finish the game. The only way we really could add significant new features that required programming at this point is if we could hire more programmers and we're a long way off from reaching the level of funding where that would be possible.

                      Orge has the most epic stretch goals ever because at 4618% funded, they're one of the most over-funded projects ever. Their first stretch goal comes at 200% funding... Our first stretch goal is at 125% funding and our highest stretch goal is less than 175% funding. The things we're promising need to be small and incremental because that's all we can afford at that level.

                      It is really an even worse comparison than that though, since Steve Jackson said Orge was basically done, they were planning to print 3000 and they were on Kickstarter to gauge interest, do pre-orders and see if they could do more. So basically, even from the start, Ogre is a stretch-goal project. Grim Dawn is a project where we need your help to finish the game.

                      Even if you look at Wasteland 2, they made 325% of their funding goal but their funding goal is the money needed to develop the entire game from scratch. They got over 3x their entire game budget!

                      We've already put over $800,000 worth of work into Grim Dawn not even counting the value of the TQ source code, which is probably about $3m worth of development. $800k + $280k x 325% = $3.5m. If we were over a million dollars right now, our stretch goals would look pretty lofty because we'd be able to hire on more than double the team and do all kinds of amazing things. At $2m we'd already have a good budget for our next project and we could do stuff like offer to give away our next game for free to all backers. If we were at $3.5m we'd be giving away ponies to backers and promising to build the next battle.net.

                      Its all a matter of scale and sadly we're just operating on a very small scale. Promising a lot more would be like buying a scratch ticket and telling your friend, if you win $5 you'll buy him a beer but if you win $10 you'll buy him a new sports car. Unfortunately, you just can't buy a new sports car for $10...

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                      • seems like basically content is limited to how much money they rake in..
                        I'm not quite sure how else you're expecting us to be able to afford extra content? I'm able to work without pay because I can cover my cost of living between savings and my wife's salary. Unfortunately, I'm one man and I can only perform so much work in a day. I'm also a designer with only rudimentary art skills. I can't create 3d models or animate. There are only so many people willing to perform unpaid or discount work for us and if they're not being paid, they generally can't commit to doing very much and have unreliable schedules.

                        To create more content, faster, we need the help of additional people. To finish building the world, implementing quests, and create more of it, we need the help of at least one additional designer, preferably more. We need to hire artists and animators or outsource the work to get more enemies, NPCs, equipment and environmental art. These people all need to be paid for their work.

                        We don't have 3 modeled and animated boss monsters in-game and read to go that we're going to remove if we don't reach our stretch goals. We need money so that we can contract people to create the models and animations for these boss monsters. We need extra design help to be able to plan and implement boss skills, configure their behaviors, create the locations they'll appear in, hook them up in the world, configure their loot tables and balance them. And so it is for the rest of the content we're tying to develop.

                        I mean, its like this... (initiate dream sequence)

                        George Washington gallantly strolls into your house / apartment and say's he'll give you a horse made of crystal if you'll agree to bake him a 3-layer cake in time for his opponent's wife's birthday next week.

                        You think, yeah, sounds like a good deal! You have a big sack... of flour, so you're all set there. However, each layer requires 1 egg and 1 cup of sugar but you only have 1 of each... so you need to buy more. Unfortunately, you have no money, so wtf are you going to do? You've already agreed to bake this cake and you know Washington will flip the fuck out if he doesn't get 3-layers in time for the party.

                        You go to the egg and sugar store but they'll only give you 1/4 of an egg for free and they're not sure when they'll be able to get to it. If you want more, you need to be able to pay them. The only realistic option you'd have is to humbly ask Alexander Hamilton for some cash and hope that he doesn't try to duel you. It turns out, Hamilton will be going to the party and he freakin loves himself some cake. He wants 4 layers though. Knowing that's going to require more eggs and sugar, you tell him you can do 4 layers but you need a little more money to pay the guy at the egg and sugar store.

                        So, that's the simplified version of the situation...


                        perhaps limiting content now may hurt later on.
                        This is exactly why we're on Kickstarter and why we have stretch goals that add content. We want to be able to release Grim Dawn with as much content as possible to ensure fans are satisfied. As illustrated above though, building more content costs money and we don't have money.

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                        • Originally posted by Grimspoon View Post
                          I guess I was more or less looking for something more unique / interesting in game, given to Kickstarter backers. Not just a list of things that the devs should be striving to include in game anyhow.
                          I have to disagree strongly with this. I really don't think it is good idea for the Kickstarter funds to be used to produce content that is only available to KS backers. The whole point of the KS campaign IS to finance as much as possible of all that the devs want to include in the game.

                          I think the stretch goals are great as they are, my only source of discontent is that we might not reach them all.

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                          • Originally posted by medierra View Post
                            I mean, its like this... (initiate dream sequence) ...
                            That's some dream Medierra. And I think I just found a signature for myself, if you don't mind

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                            • Originally posted by medierra View Post
                              <snip>
                              Originally posted by medierra View Post
                              <snap>
                              !Hear Hear!


                              Originally posted by medierra View Post
                              Its all a matter of scale and sadly we're just operating on a very small scale.
                              These days small scale isn't that bad anymore is it? Apart from the hardships of course, which most of us cannot truly appreciate (but are able to imagine I asure you). But in my opinion the best games have come from that direction these last few years. Besides, once finished and on Steam GD will sell like hotcakes, no way you'll be able to keep it small scale then. So I'm glad that in a small way I am able to help you get there...

                              Oh, and I want that pony (signed, with choices of colour and configuration (and it better be steam powered!)), so y'all get to it and pledge your savings, $3.5m here we come
                              Last edited by GhundiPI; 05-12-2012, 08:31 AM.
                              Grim Dawn Kickstarter backer #137: Digital Deluxe Edition

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                              • I think the stretch goals sound reasonable, and in fact I am looking forward to seeing many of those additional features in the game. Every little add-on content costs money, so it couldn't have been planned in the game beforehand if the budget didn't allow for it.

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