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  • #16
    Originally posted by medierra View Post
    ...Also, because we're a small team, development happens at a slower pace. There is just no way a team of less than 10 people, most working part-time, can generate as much exciting new content per month as a team of 60 people... Sorry but this is just the reality of indie development.

    So, that being said, if you feel that we've taken your money and owe you something we're not delivering on, we obviously don't want that and will be happy to grant you a full refund. Just email us at support@crateentertainment.com.
    No, of course I don't want my money back. I'm also not asking for more content. I can see where I was unclear about that and gave you the wrong impression, and I apologize for that. I'm also not asking you to hurry up development--I'm happy to wait another three years for a good product.

    I'm just asking for information that gives us a general sense of progress, like perhaps a chart that vaguely indicates progress in certain areas, be it design, implementation, testing, that sort of thing. Letting us know when milestones have been hit and when you're hoping to hit the next one. That sort of thing. A very heavily qualified date that you're aiming for for Alpha would probably be nice, as well.

    Every so often when I check in, I'll see a dev post that indicates that x is done, working on y now. That's the kind of thing I'd like to see consolidated and posted somewhere prominent.

    I get the feeling I've offended you, though, and I apologize for that. I'm still a supporter and a fan and I'm quite content to wait and see what you've got when you're ready to show it. Keep up the good work, gentlemen.

    Comment


    • #17
      His point is: they won't a solid date give, but will give occasional updates.

      They aren't trying to please everyone and that they are making a quality game for an aforementioned chosen demographic.

      EDIT: Fair edit, by Med.
      Last edited by Malpheas; 02-01-2012, 05:51 PM. Reason: Somewhat inflammatory... Let's be nice ; )
      It may also be surprising to know that some players prefer different play-styles.
      It is not censorship, it is called Whack a mole.
      I guess it only makes sense for Ghosts'n Goblins to go online. I mean, online is the current realm of people running around in their underwear, and Ghosts'n Goblins pretty much invented running around in your underwear.

      Comment


      • #18
        The issue as has already pointed out is that it takes time to do what you are asking. As simple as it may seem to be to actually generate the information you are asking for would take time to compile and package together to be web-worthy. At least that's my understanding of things. Crate needs to spend time working on the important things, you know, like developing the game.

        Be patient. It'll be worth it.
        Legendary Key Holder Upgraded - Digital Deluxe Edition

        Comment


        • #19
          Can I suggest putting these updates on the Grim Dawn homepage as well as posting to the forums? The last dev update on the site is Nov '11, which doesn't look too good for folks hitting the site for the first time.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
            You donated said money because you had faith in the company, they're not really taking it or even asking for it.

            Information is nice, but the way you're asking seems very rude.
            They are not donations. We are (those that have paid) buying a product and left to have faith that the company will not fold up before it's finished.

            Now, the OP is wrong too however, we are not investors in the company, we (again, those that have made the purchase) have simply bought a product in good faith that it will be delivered.

            With that said, that which holds me back from buying the game from them, is lack of milestone information, i.e. when they believe that alpha stage will be hit, be it 4th quarter 2012, or summer 2014 etc.
            Last edited by City Builder; 02-22-2012, 01:54 PM.
            • I'M PROUD TO SUPPORT CRATE WITH MY LEGENDARY GRIM DAWN PURCHASE.
            • WON'T YOU PLEASE ALSO BE PROUD AND DO THE SAME?

            Comment


            • #21
              Medierra, to summarize everyone, what we want is a timeline. Not set in stone, but a timeline in what you guys are currently planning, so we don't get all disappointed and such when it seems you guys are not really doing anything but in fact you guys are.

              Example: Current Timeline for Grim Dawn! (Not set in stone)

              February: Gameplay video released.

              March: First official trailer released.

              May: Alpha, start to ramp up advertising.

              July: Beta, home stretch.

              August-September: Release general game information.. preview to big name publishers, Beta continues to get more patches..

              October: Release, list of what you guys plan to do in the future.


              Give us something, so at least we know.
              Now playing:

              PC: Mount and Blade : Napoleonic Wars, League of Legends, Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne.

              PS3: ---

              Waiting for: Grim Dawn, Warcraft 4.

              Comment


              • #22
                I'm sure if they could give us a timeline they would. And if it's going to be a really vague/rough timeline, what's the point anyway? Giving one will probably just cause more problems for them if they then cannot hold to it and will just lead to more restlessness amongst the forum.

                We should all probably remember how lucky we've been to see this much detail early on. I can't really think of any other development teams giving this much insight and detail at this stage of development. A great example is the user interface; they published a screen shot of how it was, we gave feedback and they adjusted accordingly, then showed us again. Immediate response to forum input.

                They have said they're trying to punch out the game as quickly as they can. IMO, we can't ask for much more.
                My Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/klo0ga

                Comment


                • #23
                  I agree. Easy does it. Besides, if you can't wait for this game, there are others.

                  Cheers,

                  Malph
                  It may also be surprising to know that some players prefer different play-styles.
                  It is not censorship, it is called Whack a mole.
                  I guess it only makes sense for Ghosts'n Goblins to go online. I mean, online is the current realm of people running around in their underwear, and Ghosts'n Goblins pretty much invented running around in your underwear.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    It's hard to give a timeline when you are a group of guys, doing this in your spare time, assuming they have day jobs to keep the lights on. I'm a developer myself and write code in my spare time as I have a day job in IT. I see myself in this type of situation in the future as I plan to start my own game dev studio at some point. I've been working on projects that will work towards that goal, plus I write music. I can totally appreciate the dev team's hard work and the fact that they may be unable to provide a timeline. I'd rather them not provide a timeline as anything they would produce will likely have delays and it may upset some of the gamers eagerly awaiting the game.

                    Keep up the good work, devs. I'm looking forward to this game.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I don't tend to post here much, I lurk for updates, regularly.

                      I find myself more in the camp of no news is bad news. But I have to say that Madierra post on page 1 really paints this team as a top notched team I would like to support, even if I don't ever play their product!

                      I haven't pre-ordered grim dawn, been burned to many times by development cycles and crap releases to ever pre-order anything ever again, but I gotta say that your awesome diplomatic way of handling and actually responding to these complaints makes me think twice about not pre-ordering grim dawn!

                      thank you for the refreshing take on customer service!
                      www.SynergiesMOD.com Conversion mod for TL2, could there be one for GrimDawn, most likely!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I myself only visit once a month or few months. It's frustrating to see that nobody has had the time to post anything on the website in 3 months. The fans are not demanding a live action movie in your (the developers) free time, but in 15 minutes you can write a piece what has been accomplished the last week or so, something like a "changelog". It's not that you need to, but a company that seems to be "dead" does not EVER get more love, in the form of donations. There is no disadvantage in showing that Crate is still active, something that is barely showing if you look for it in the forum. The fans now it's there, but new visitors don't.

                        I see that the limitation of a small workforce is being mentioned. Does Crate want more staff ? Or more time ? That would mean more money is needed. Suggestions have already been given to get this: Kickstarter, more site updates, using your fanbase as help.

                        I'm not saying Crate is bad or the game should be released sooner, but the tension of people is rising because there seems to be happening so little at the surface. That tension is the result of the choices being made not putting a small amount of time in the community. Again, we are not asking for much, we are asking for a little once a week or so.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Phuncz View Post
                          I myself only visit once a month or few months. It's frustrating to see that nobody has had the time to post anything on the website in 3 months. The fans are not demanding a live action movie in your (the developers) free time, but in 15 minutes you can write a piece what has been accomplished the last week or so, something like a "changelog". It's not that you need to, but a company that seems to be "dead" does not EVER get more love, in the form of donations. There is no disadvantage in showing that Crate is still active, something that is barely showing if you look for it in the forum. The fans now it's there, but new visitors don't.

                          I see that the limitation of a small workforce is being mentioned. Does Crate want more staff ? Or more time ? That would mean more money is needed. Suggestions have already been given to get this: Kickstarter, more site updates, using your fanbase as help.

                          I'm not saying Crate is bad or the game should be released sooner, but the tension of people is rising because there seems to be happening so little at the surface. That tension is the result of the choices being made not putting a small amount of time in the community. Again, we are not asking for much, we are asking for a little once a week or so.
                          Are not you treating Crate a bit unjustly, guys? I quoted your post, Phuncz, as it was just too much for me, heh, not all in this response of mine is directed to you directly, please be aware of that, this is for all the "doomsayers" like you.

                          In no way last update was 3 months ago, just read the forums, please. There is an update from "01-26-2012, 05:59 PM" and from today.

                          Yes, it is true Crate could perhaps update their "Dev Blog" with all the stuff they do, but as I see it, they are updating it with just what general audience wants to see (new screenshots, new music, new classes, and similar), and because the update from the end of January was "Modular House Update", not THAT many might care about, there is a chance they did not think it was worth updating the blog for and put it just to "What are we up to now" section.

                          15 minutes for writting text? I honestly doubt that.. They would have to think about what they can write and what not, not to spoil us anything. They would have to prepare it, people can't always just write their thoughts right away, especially if it has to be official (also, speaking of screenshots, they must look presentable, not just randomly printed, if they want to attract anybody with them). And now imagine if we, bloodthirsty fans, did not get any update for few weeks, outrageous!!! Something like what is happening now... And this is just what I know about it, which is like nothing. I guess they struggle with many more things, one of them being the tiny thing called development. =))

                          If you browsed the forums, you could find some pieces of updates every month, sometimes earlier. Medierra is online every day and talking to us quite frequently, do not ever dare to say otherwise, because I would redirect you to any other game forums, where you would see almost no developer involvement at fucking all!!! Be glad Crate has such nice people who listen to their fanbase! Jees, what else do you want? I really do not know..

                          Regarding the workforce and Kickstarter, have you even read what medierra posted in the Kickstarter thread you mentioned?


                          I do not want to sound angry or start a flame war, just stating facts.. =)
                          --TQ:IT Death Effects Mod maker (DEM), Former ASYLUMSMOD, Masteries & Krater(alpha) Tester, Masteries Calculator maker--

                          Thorough GD info here: www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=71628&postcount=1

                          Best music label of all times: www.g7welcomingcommittee.com/

                          "Boxed Deluxe Edition" support

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by i.n.s.a.n.e View Post
                            Are not you treating Crate a bit unjustly, guys? I quoted your post, Phuncz, as it was just too much for me, heh, not all in this response of mine is directed to you directly, please be aware of that, this is for all the "doomsayers" like you.
                            Where did I say anything about doom I'm suggesting solutions for the "problems". Nowhere did I say anything like "Crate is doomed" or "My money is wasted". I'm actually trying to help here.

                            In no way last update was 3 months ago, just read the forums, please. There is an update from "01-26-2012, 05:59 PM" and from today.
                            I said: "...to post anything on the website in 3 months."
                            Not everyone goes to the forum. Most people new to the site, see:
                            Randomized Barriers
                            Posted: November 7, 2011 by Medierra


                            15 minutes for writting text? I honestly doubt that.. They would have to think about what they can write and what not, not to spoil us anything. They would have to prepare it, people can't always just write their thoughts right away, especially if it has to be official (also, speaking of screenshots, they must look presentable, not just randomly printed, if they want to attract anybody with them).
                            We are talking about a game by people who spend their free time and part-time to develop the game, not a State Senator's Address. If Crate would be affraid of people taking reports too literally, why have a forum ? It's full of subjective opinions from Crate affiliates.

                            And now imagine if we, bloodthirsty fans, did not get any update for few weeks, outrageous!!! Something like what is happening now...
                            Last time I checked, 13 weeks are not "a few weeks". As I stated before, it's not the problem that's it not strictly regularly, it's that almost all the news is on the forum, almost hidden away. Information about the game is just too hard to find for the average person.

                            If you browsed the forums, you could find some pieces of updates every month, sometimes earlier. Medierra is online every day and talking to us quite frequently, do not ever dare to say otherwise, because I would redirect you to any other game forums, where you would see almost no developer involvement at fucking all!!! Be glad Crate has such nice people who listen to their fanbase! Jees, what else do you want? I really do not know..
                            A lot of excitement there. As you can see with my forum post count, I've been here before. The issue I'm raising is that the forum is not the place people interested in the game will go to by default.

                            Companies that don't support their community get flamed for it a lot, by the way. Even very large companies. But they are well known, have an almost infinite budget and guaranteed sales. Crate does not have any so their community is their most important asset.

                            Regarding the workforce and Kickstarter, have you even read what medierra posted in the Kickstarter thread you mentioned?
                            No sorry, I didn't read everything on the forum. I think the people at Crate can understand that not everyone has the time for that.

                            I do not want to sound angry or start a flame war, just stating facts.. =)
                            I don't see a lot of facts, I see an opinion (just like mine) that we should all just shut up because Crate knows best.
                            I'm not a Cratenist or religuously believe in them. I'm a member of the community and a game driven by the community (donations) should not be deaf to the community's outcries. It should be a sign that people are craving more information.
                            Last edited by Phuncz; 02-08-2012, 11:52 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I think phuncz is making a good point.
                              As you can see i don't post much because i really hate forums.
                              What I do is: I go to the website every 3 or 4 weeks, and i check whats new on there. As you can see there has not been a posting for quite a bit.
                              This could be a problem with people new to GD who just want to have a look whats going on on the website and in development. It really looks at first that there has not been a lot going on lately. Not everybody who is interested will create a forum account and dig through it to find some information. Being around for a while, i know that medierra is posting the news here on the forums, so I check his postings from time to time just to get an update of what is going on.

                              I think aswell that the first two sticky entries of the "news and announcements" thread called: "paypal support" and "Buy Now! is back online!" could bring up false impressions about Crate for people who are new to GD and just want to have a peek of what is going on

                              In my opinion it would attract more "future customers" to the game and to the forum if there would be frequent updates on the website ... lets say every 2 weeks, does not have to be much, but a sign of life would make some people happier.

                              I think medierra and the Crate team are doing perfectly right in not giving out timelines or saying we are going to implement this or that feature into the game.

                              I've seen that on a forum of a little 2 people synthesizer company that builds really great products, but they made the mistake that they said: "we are trying to bring out the update end this year, and we try to implement these and those features." As capacities in that company are small aswell, the update took longer, and they were not able to implement all the features into the update. That started an unbelieveable flamewar in the forums. Most people were pissed off because they did not get what they expected when they expected it.

                              Just keep up the way your doing what your doing dear crate team, just show a little bit more life on the website of the game.
                              Last edited by mcbeth; 02-09-2012, 01:08 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mcbeth View Post
                                I've seen that on a forum of a little 2 people synthesizer company that builds really great products, but they made the mistake that they said: "we are trying to bring out the update end this year, and we try to implement these and those features." As capacities in that company are small aswell, the update took longer, and they were not able to implement all the features into the update. That started an unbelieveable flamewar in the forums. Most people were pissed off because they did not get what they expected when they expected it.
                                This is exactly what we want to avoid and why I agree that it would be a huge mistake to try to release any schedule. The smaller the team size relative to the scope and complexity of the project, the worse the accuracy of your estimates tend to be and the greater the run-over when you're wrong. We'd run an even greater risk of gross inaccuracy since we have several people who work part-time or intermittently. When people aren't on your pay-roll and reporting for a full day's work every day, there is no way to predict how much they're going to get done in month. Some team members tend to get a ton of work done one month, when their other obligations are less demanding, and then will be virtually absent another month. We also sometimes have people who come on to the project for a few months and then leave after they change jobs, have a baby, etc.

                                Grim Dawn has really been a rollercoaster ride of boom and bust productivity. Overall, the game keeps moving forward and I'm pleased with what we accomplished in 2011 but, under these circumstances, any schedule we produced would be meaningless.

                                I think comments about new visitors potentially having a tough time finding the most recent activity are valid. I've done a little re-arranging and re-naming of the forums to make it easier to find the latest updates.

                                I'd like to say we'll keep the homepage more regularly updated but I've said that before and look at the results. All in all though, I don't think we are really unusually bad among smaller, independent studios for the phase of development we're in. I guess there are some very small indie studios that seem to write a 5-page blog every time they take a dump but I honestly don't know how they find time for that. Usually though, when most studios are in the midst of development, they tend to not generate a lot of major news. On the flip side, we have other people criticizing us because the news we do post is not significant enough...

                                I just checked out Runic's site for a point of reference and they seem to be doing much the same as us. Their latest homepage news story is from August but like us, they have a Twitter feed on the homepage and are very active on their forums.

                                So, I agree with what people are saying and I appreciate the helpful feedback but I don't feel that we're unusually bad. It seems like this may be more a problem with the way information is displayed than with the frequency of it. Perhaps a good, practical compromise would be to change the homepage so that it points to the Development Updates section of the forum.

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