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  • #16
    Alien shooter is not all too different; an isometric hack'n slash. It didn't have proper skills and very limited 'loot', but put those in and you're done.

    And Space Siege held a lot of potential; the skill system was lame and they didn't have random loot, but that doesn't matter too much when it comes to movement control. That game would've worked perfectly as a diabloclone with WASD movement. It was actually what I expected when I first heard of the game.

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    • #17
      It didn't have any skills, if I remember correctly. And that's one of the hurdles to over come to do a ARPG (like TQ) as a isometric shooter. How do you mix the shooting, wasd movement, with intuitive skill usage. It's easy to say "put them in and your done"...but I don't think it's quite that easy. I'm not ragging on Alien Shooter though, AS2 is awesomesauce.

      And I gotta disagree with Space Siege...I thought just about everything was pretty shallow...even the shooting. I didn't think it did anything particularly well. The "rpg" stuff was done very poorly, and even the shooting felt stiff compared to games like Shadowgrounds.
      Last edited by Renevent; 02-26-2010, 08:36 PM.
      "I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic."

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      • #18
        Oh, it did do everything poorly (except for the taunts, those were awesome). But with a few changes it could've been so much better. Just respawning monsters and random loot would've made a world of difference.

        AS2 didn't have skills, but it had perks and attributes. That's basically what you need for an RPG. I don't see how adding skills would make it completely different though. It'd still be controlled in the same way.

        Basically, WASD simply allows you to move your character while using skills, instead of doing one or the other.
        Last edited by yerkyerk; 02-26-2010, 09:05 PM.

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        • #19
          Hey, believe it or not, Sacred 2 had WASD movement as well... I used it for getting around when I wanted a hand free...
          It may also be surprising to know that some players prefer different play-styles.
          It is not censorship, it is called Whack a mole.
          I guess it only makes sense for Ghosts'n Goblins to go online. I mean, online is the current realm of people running around in their underwear, and Ghosts'n Goblins pretty much invented running around in your underwear.

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          • #20
            Well, that's certainly interesting, as S2 is definetely in the same genre. Never played it past demo-mode though. So, how does WASD movement work out for Sacred 2?

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            • #21
              Um, it was ok. but I would never use it in combat as it was really clunky.

              The big difference between TQ and S2 was the combat pace ( and largely seamless world in terms of loading time ). And even at a slower pace, S2 was still not a viable WASD environment.
              Last edited by Malpheas; 02-26-2010, 10:00 PM.
              It may also be surprising to know that some players prefer different play-styles.
              It is not censorship, it is called Whack a mole.
              I guess it only makes sense for Ghosts'n Goblins to go online. I mean, online is the current realm of people running around in their underwear, and Ghosts'n Goblins pretty much invented running around in your underwear.

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              • #22
                WSAD for S2 was only for movement, i never used it during battle unless i was a ranged and needed to reposition fast... all in all it works well but i went to mouse often.

                I really enjoyed S2, it was quite fun and the story seemed to move and flow diffrently with each choice of character to play.

                I digress, WSAD movement has little place in GrimDawn...

                But, WSAD for dodge events with a secondary key like ALT+W for a roll forward ALT+S for a dodge back would be very nice, or maybe bind the dodge toggle to a mouse4 (i use a 5 button mouse) would be really cool.
                “The Blood of my Enemy's will wash my Sins away, in the GRIM DAWN of a new Day”

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                • #23
                  I think the WASD movement in S2 needs some clarification.

                  The WS keys would move your character forward and backward respectively, while the AD keys rotated the camera. So the camera would always be facing the target of your character.

                  Also, any targeting done with your mouse has priority over the WS movement.

                  I think this worked very well in that you could use the WS to move over great distances and instantly switch to using the mouse for fighting. You could then rotate the camera using AD while fighting with the mouse giving you optimal view of the battle.

                  I don't see how this sort of system would not work in Grim Dawn. Maybe if somebody could give me some solid examples of why it wouldn't work.

                  I wish I could get this system in TQ since finger ache is about the only thing preventing me from playing TQ for hours on end While I can play S2 non-stop because I can give my mouse finger a break
                  AMD Phenom X4 975 3.6//ASUS M3A78-T//8GB DDR2-1066 RAM//GTX 660//Asus Xonar D2X//Crucial C300 64GB SSD//Windows 7 x64//Alpha Tester

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                  • #24
                    My 2 cents on the subject:

                    I think the combat system that DG will use will be the greatest factor in determining wether or not WASD movement will be advantageous or just an alternative but cumbersome way to move your character.

                    If the combat system is equal to that of TQ - the act of attacking or casting skills will always cease any movement and forbid it for the duration - then I see no real advantages of implementing such a system, only a big downside that it will eat developement time from features that could actually enhance gameplay.

                    The only case where the advantages of a WASD system outweight the lost time of implementing it would be if the combat system was changed into a WoW like system, where you can move freely with your character and attacking / instant skills could be used without hindering that movement - this kind of system is quite fun to play in mmo's where a single encounter usually doesn't consist of more than 1-4 monsters at a time, each taking quite a long time to finish off, but if GD will have anywhere near as many monsters as TQ did, I think it wouldn't really enhance anything, as the player would still have to manually choose targets with their mouse every few seconds and especially with melee characters, that would create a situation where combat might actually degenerate into something that is extremely annoying to manage: not only would you have to pick targets as you did before, but you would also have to move your character with WASD to make sure you were in range to use your skills.

                    Some might try to suggest that they could be used together to dodge the disadvantages of such a system - WASD controlling movement AND the use of mouse buttons to use skills would move the character to the target -, but that would create situation where we would have to choose between 2 evils: either using the mouse to move to a target would completely ignore any buttons pressed on WASD (which would be very annoying since to begin using WASD to move again, you would have to release and re-press any buttons you were pressing at the time) or you wouldn't be able to use mouse movement at all while any of the WASD keys were pressed, making combat just as tedious (third option would be to use a system where WASD moved the character based on where he was looking instead of where the camera was pointed at to make simultaneous mouse+WASD movement work by making mouse targeting just face your character to the correct way, but such a system has been proven to be very annoying and cumbersome by many games that used it, so this would be the worst choice of them all).

                    Some might also suggest that one could simply choose from the options which kind of system he wanted to use, but all things considered (more than half of the players would use the old system because of all the limitations and annoyances that came with any of the new ones), if the combat system does not change from TQ (attacking and instant skills usable while moving AND lesser amounts of monsters per encounter - effectively making the game a single player/LAN WoW-clone) and considering the extremely limited resources the devs have as it is, the time taken isn't worth what a small addition this would be (for some the gameplay enhancing effect would be negative, as it would not bring anything new to their experience, but would force the devs to drop some other useful feature from the game).

                    That being said, I'm strongly against WASD movement in GD for very good reasons.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by cel View Post
                      If the combat system is equal to that of TQ - the act of attacking or casting skills will always cease any movement and forbid it for the duration - then I see no real advantages of implementing such a system, only a big downside that it will eat developement time from features that could actually enhance gameplay.
                      I still think that GD could benefit from WASD movement (it's going to have a rotateable camera isn't it?), since it would allow you to (as Kirii says) move either using the mouse or the keys reducing the "strain" on your (probably right) index finger. I use the WASD keys to move when I want a break from moving with my mouse (& vice versa, if I want a break from moving with my keyboard I'll use my mouse) & then in combat I can swing the camera round for a better view without any pause in combat. The only time I use the keys to move in combat is if my character's got itself into a loop where it's constantly moving to get to a position that the pathing AI's decided is always somewhere else.

                      The only case where the advantages of a WASD system outweight the lost time of implementing it would be if the combat system was changed into a WoW like system, where you can move freely with your character and attacking / instant skills could be used without hindering that movement ... not only would you have to pick targets as you did before, but you would also have to move your character with WASD to make sure you were in range to use your skills.
                      I really wouldn't want to impliment something like that, as you say, it would be a horrible mish-mash that would make combat a lot more clunky & unintuitive, but that's not what's being suggested here. The implimentation of mouse/keyboard movement in S2 was fairly easy to get to grips with IMO.

                      Some might try to suggest that they could be used together to dodge the disadvantages of such a system - WASD controlling movement AND the use of mouse buttons to use skills would move the character to the target -, but that would create situation where we would have to choose between 2 evils: either using the mouse to move to a target would completely ignore any buttons pressed on WASD (which would be very annoying since to begin using WASD to move again, you would have to release and re-press any buttons you were pressing at the time) or you wouldn't be able to use mouse movement at all while any of the WASD keys were pressed, making combat just as tedious (third option would be to use a system where WASD moved the character based on where he was looking instead of where the camera was pointed at to make simultaneous mouse+WASD movement work by making mouse targeting just face your character to the correct way, but such a system has been proven to be very annoying and cumbersome by many games that used it, so this would be the worst choice of them all).
                      A fourth option is how S2 did it. Mouse overrides keys for movement, but keys override mouse for rotating the camera (TBH, I've not actually thought about this for a very long time since it's so intuitive for me, like driving, I don't think about pressing the clutch down to change gear, it just happens). If you're in combat, you'll have the LMB held down so you wouldn't then move with the keys, but you could rotate the camera if you so desired.

                      That being said, I'm strongly against WASD movement in GD for very good reasons.
                      And I'm strongly for it for some very good reasons... It gives me more options as to how to move my character & my right index finger hurts less as a result of that. For similar reasons I don't like having to click on each monster individually to attack it after the last one's died (it reminds me of the bad old days when you had to click for each swing & combat turned into a manic click-fest).

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Llama8 View Post
                        And I'm strongly for it for some very good reasons... It gives me more options as to how to move my character & my right index finger hurts less as a result of that. For similar reasons I don't like having to click on each monster individually to attack it after the last one's died (it reminds me of the bad old days when you had to click for each swing & combat turned into a manic click-fest).
                        I still don't see why it should be implemented when the only pro you've managed to bring out is the "reducing the "strain" on your (probably right) index finger" and we've already concluded that it brings absolutely nothing to combat situations (which the game will be filled with, mind you this is an arpg putting on the big shoes that TQ left behind).

                        Camera rotation has nothing to do with WASD movement either, it's a completely different thing.

                        If your finger really is that bad, here's a solution that doesn't really require anything: Switch your rmb/lmb skills and vóila, you're getting the same effect without wasting dev time.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by cel View Post
                          I still don't see why it should be implemented when the only pro you've managed to bring out is the "reducing the "strain" on your (probably right) index finger" and we've already concluded that it brings absolutely nothing to combat situations (which the game will be filled with, mind you this is an arpg putting on the big shoes that TQ left behind).
                          Just because that's the only pro you see doesn't mean it's the only one that I see.

                          Camera rotation has nothing to do with WASD movement either, it's a completely different thing.
                          Depends how WASD movement is implimented. You can either have A & D rotate the character (like in S2), or have the character side-step (IIRC the default setting for most FPS games). If you have the keys set up to rotate, then you can tie them in to rotating the camera as well.

                          If your finger really is that bad, here's a solution that doesn't really require anything: Switch your rmb/lmb skills and vóila, you're getting the same effect without wasting dev time.
                          It wouldn't be a waste of time cel, it would be a feature, something that makes the game better for people, rather than continuing to use out-dated functionality. But one that's not forced on people, you can quite easily set it up so that you don't have to use WASD keys to move in S2, just remap those buttons to something else & viola, you've got the same control scheme as TQ/D2 etc. *shrugs* You're assuming that it would take a large amount of time to impliment, I've no idea, it might, it might not.

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                          • #28
                            Personally this is not a feature I am that interested in...especially after playing S2. But I think Llama is right on the money...it can be implemented in a way that doesn't negatively effect anyone, and would be a positive addition for some (or many...who knows).

                            Whether or not this is actually worth the developers time and how much time it would take to implement, I have no idea. I think that's the deciding factor here. Regardless, after listening to the arguments I think the idea obviously has merit.
                            "I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic."

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                            • #29
                              If you want to play a game with WASD, play Avencast, it's out on steam.

                              The only way that game is any fun is if you put the mouse at rotate camera.

                              After comparing WASD movement in Avencast and Titanquest, I can say there's no real advantage to the system, it's just a little more cumbersome. At least, I just didn't find it any better.
                              _______
                              Legendary Fan & KickStart Supporter

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                              • #30
                                The biggest advantage I see with it is kiting. Instead of having to click on almost opposite sides of the screen twice a second, you just hover your reticle over the monster while walking in the opposite direction with wasd.

                                This is the type of thing that will only work out if the game is designed with it in mind, though - in terms of being able to shoot while moving, whether it's balanced with kiting in mind, and so on.
                                Praise the sun!

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