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  • Your irony detector seems broken too.

    just posting comment online i don't believe u have to use proper grammar and full sentence/ paragraphical struture.
    And me I don't believe you expect people will read your indigestible wall of text.
    Last edited by Yggdrasil; 10-02-2011, 05:27 AM.


    • TQ's movement system is the best one I've encountered for an action-rpg (PC).


      • I'd really like to see it get this and the ability to map attack to a button.
        That's so i can take an old Atari style joystick and play on the easiest setting Gauntlet style;
        Naturally the accuracy would be heaps low, but would be hell fun to get my kids in on playing it more easily.

        The accuracy thing can be fixed with a sort of strafe button mapping or even an auto-target nearest by direction (though arguably that would probably require significantly more programing than strafe).

        Still it'd bring a more unique gamemode to Grim Dawn helping it keep fresh.
        Could you imagine people trying to take it on hardcore with 3-4 buttons and a directional pad lolz that would be an epic beer night struggle


        • I'm fine how it is, but if there are some option for it i'm okay, but should be optional.. Alot of us prefer the old school point and click system.


          • These kinds of games are always best with direct input movement. I would encourage Crate to consider atleast having it as an option. I use Xpadder on a 360 controller to play all my pc stuff. I usually use a hybrid controller/mouse control style and WASD is so easy to map.

            The first game I ever played in this genre was Diablo on PS1. That is what got me into action RPGs and I hate that so many pc versions ignore the controller in favor of a keyboard. Don't get me wrong, some games just don't match up well with a controller or have too many input needs. Action RPGs just aren't that way. They use minimal key strokes and involve alot of direction changing, especially if you want to dodge effectively. I already have a working setup for Diablo 3 which works fine but would be so much better with WASD movement as an option. Personally I can not overstate how important controller support or atleast direct input would be for me. Thanks.


            • WASD controls were requested at Blizzcon in the D3 dev pow-wow. The lead dev (forgot his name, don't care to remember it) explained how he thought that wouldn't make for a good experience and wouldn't be included.

              Amongst the boos and groans, I thought, "He didn't ask for your opinion, he asked for it to be included."

              This was the sole reason I did not pre-order D3. Now that its released, we see dev hubris makes for some quality garbage. (I'm with the OP; I just fired up Guild Wars again after 5 years.) Additionally, click-to-move was the reason I only played D1 & 2 and Torchlight only once.

              I put up with it in Titan Crack (most addictive game I've ever played) but it definitely detracted from my experience.

              I am a PC gamer, where the "P" stands for personal. If I wanted someone else to tell me what I like and what's good for me, I'd own a console instead.

              I am also over 40 and repetitive-stress injury is a factor, so even if I wanted click-to-move, it isn't really an option.

              I don't understand why some see this as either-or when we can have both and please everyone; its not often that's possible.

              Click-to-move is awkward, clunky, counter-intuitive and counter-productive. Perhaps its my FPS roots but:

              - find mouse pointer
              - move mouse pointer to desired location
              - click to move
              - refocus, find desired foe
              - click on foe
              - notice I am running towards foe (to give him a hug? 'cause I'm not attacking him like I wanted)
              - get smacked in face by foe
              - if not dead, move pointer away from foe and click somewhere, anywhere!
              - re-imagine the water-in-mineshaft flee scene from Indiana Jones to avert feelings of inadequacy
              - if still not dead, go to first step

              takes far longer than:

              - press movement key(s) or move G13 stick

              Replies that state, "You can [instead]" are workarounds when a workaround shouldn't be necessary.
              Last edited by Rolo42; 05-21-2012, 02:37 PM.


              • I am one of many PC gamers who would love to see some alternative form of movement control available. As others have already stated, it does not need to be the only thing available, nor even the dominant mode of traversing. But I would be very, very disappointed with this entire project if it were not at least an option. Flash games everywhere have incorporated WASD into isometric perspectives, and I know from personal experience that coding the segment for it isn't all that difficult. Even if I end up having to open the main game directory and editing a couple parameters within the .cfg file to enable hotkey-enabled movement, I would be more or less satisfied. Having to deal with a game that is hard-coded NOT to use hotkey-enabled movement would be unacceptable.

                If you prefer point-and-click movement, that is fine. I have no problem with that being included in the game, even if I don't ever intend to use it. But imagine it this way: what if GrimDawn were instead slated to use only WASD movement? I'm sure you lot would be about as unhappy as the rest of us. I'm not stating that WASD is better. That's as impossible an assertion to make as announcing that point-and-click is better. There is no "better" in this: only preferential. And judging from the responses in this thread, the preferences are split roughly 50-50. Why cater to only one half when you can almost as easily cater to both halves, especially when the capability to do so can almost literally be copied and pasted from the internet?


                • I played a lot of sacred 2 and always used the WASD to move around... and now playing D3, I find it a bit clumsy using just the mouse... Pls add it in


                  • Originally posted by medierra View Post
                    I think WASD would be great for a cross-platform shooter ARPG. However, WASD + Melee = FAIL. At least, in order for it to work effectively and not feel really clunky, we'd have to totally change our combat system in ways that I don't have the brainpower available to imagine right now.
                    I felt exactly this way. WASD + ranged = fine, WASD + melee = fail. But then I played Smashmuck Champions and after playing a few games, I realized it works well even for melee characters. I could not play Sacred, as I simply couldn't stomach the overall feel (not exactly why, I just felt horribly playing it), so I have no idea how that works, but this Smashmuch scheme really does work well and is not clunky at all, despite my preconception.

                    But I can quite understand it would require lots of work, so I'm not gonna beat the dead horse any more.
                    Steampunk Dungeon Crawler: http://www.vaporum-game.com/


                    • I think WASD movement controls just make sense if you can attack/use skills while walking. As this isn't given in this kind of ARPG's it doesn't really make sense to add WASD controls.


                      • I don't think tacking WASD controls onto GD (or the TQ Engine) would work. Just because of the way things work in TQ and GD. As was already mentioned melee would suck. BUT I do believe that melee and WASD are combinable if done right (just think of how melee works in Skyrim, Witcher2, HG:L or even Borderlands).

                        I believe there is a way to do proper WASD ARPG controls - which never has been done before.

                        The basic idea is, to keep a birds eye view with a camera looking down from higher up (depending on zoom level).
                        Moving the mouse left an right would rotate the camera AND the character, with the character being technically unable to ever face a different direction than the camera does (player always has full control over character rotation).
                        But moving the mouse up and down would NOT tilt the camera: the angle in which the camera is looking down, would be fixed based on the current zoom-level. Instead the cursor/crosshair is not fixed in the center of the screen, but moving the mouse up/down does move the cursor further away/closer to the character. This can be used to aim spells - but the main reason to do so is to remove the feeling of the mouse being unresponsive or the camera being "locked" - e.g. the game being unresponsive to vertical mouse movement.

                        W would move the character forwards, S backwards, and A and D would be used to strafe sidewards. Forwards would be fastest, backwards slowest, and sidewards in-between. There would be no buttons for jump/climb, crouch or any other form of movement. If the player presses W to go forward, and a obstacle blocks the path, the character would just jump over it - if possible. What is possible and what not could be based upon an "acrobatics" skill that can be improved for skill points. Characters with a very high acrobatics skill should be able to jump higher and further, climb steeper slopes and maybe even wall-run and do other parcours (free-running) stunts. All automatically whenever needed - without requiring the player to time jumps or stuff. If the acrobatics skill was to low to cross a chasm - the character would just stop on the edge, instead of falling down.

                        Swinging a melee weapon would be able to hit multiple enemies - it should hit any enemy within reach of the swing. Overhead swings going downwards would only hit enemies in a very tight cone in front of the character - wide sideways swings could hit enemies in up to an 180 arc. Both melee and ranged attacks would not require the character to stop moving - but stronger attacks could slow down movement decisively - while lighter attacks could have almost no impact on speed at all. Main attacks would of course be bound directly to both mouse-buttons, additional attacks/skills to Q, E, R and the number keys above. Interaction (like pick up, talk to, open, etc.) would be bound to E or F key by default (but freely changeable of course).

                        Opening the map/inventory/character screen or anything else would free the mouse for regular point&click use. Additionally the CTRL key could unlock the mouse while hold down - although this never should be required in normal gameplay. The interaction key 'F' should be able to cover any action needed ingame, ESC should get you into the menue with free mouse, from where you can go anywhere (inventory, character screen etc.) without having to remember shortcuts.

                        Main disadvantage would be that two hands are required to play. A big advantage of the point&click model is, that it can be played one-handed. Another disadvantage is, that WASD is a bit less intuitive and harder to learn for complete newcomers. Just move the mouse and click is so stupid simple (in a good way), that every idiot can grasp it without further explanation.

                        Main advantage would be that combat is much more action packed simply because of the fact that you can move and attack simultaneously. And we all know from D2 and TQ that on a screen overloaded with enemies and spell effects it can become very hard to precisely move, or attack, because sometimes you happen to klick an enemy although you intended to click on ground, or the other way round. So as another advantage you also gain more precise control over your character.


                        • WASD in an isometric ARPG? haha are you kidding ?

                          The only thing wrong with click to move is that some games (Titan Quest is one of these culprits) aren't quite as responsive as they could be.

                          In Titan Quest if you get surrounded by monsters it can be difficult to navigate your way to safety because a lot of the time you can end up holding down the mouse over another monster by accident and your char will in turn attack that monster instead.


                          • Originally posted by Sensuki View Post
                            WASD in an isometric ARPG? haha are you kidding ?
                            Nope. Grim Dawn has a full camera that you can rotate any direction you want. By extension, forward and backward are quite accurately whichever direction you're facing the camera. You could strafe from side to side! You could even back-pedal!

                            Click to move is a pain in the ***, especially if you're not melee. The same controls you use to aim and attack happen to be the ones you use to move and evade. A or B. You can't do both. I realized just how much I hated click-to-move playing Space Seige for shizz and giggles. You spent most of your time wildly flicking the mouse around than you did actually *doing* anything. It was a never ending see-saw. Move the cursor to the enemy, wait no, have to dodge, move the cursor away from the enemy, back towards to attack them, away again to dodge, towards, away, towards, away.

                            ...the controls lacks any and all forms of elegance possible.
                            Last edited by LostSoul; 04-26-2013, 05:54 AM.


                            • Controls to move and attack are the same in high intensity games like DotA which require high precision and speed at most tiers of play, so I wouldn't exactly say that that is an issue at all.

                              You can position yourself and attack in those games, and if you make a mistake it's usually because you made a mistake like clicked on the UI or accidentally clicked on the wrong unit etc, whereas in Titan Quest (and Diablo 2) it's a lot harder to control, simply because of how it's designed and coded rather than the fact that it's point and click.

                              It's more to do with the selection coding and stuff like that probably.

                              I can totally understand WASD controls in 3rd person games, but in a high isometric view it just seems kinda weird to me, I absolutely fucking hated it in Dragon Age.


                              • I would love to see an arpg with keyboard movement. There is a weird stigma for arpg for point and click movement. I understand some people are used to it since Diablo and probably haven't played too many other games. Not being able to use keyboard movement while aiming and using skills is not a valid argument, since me and many people can do it.

                                I have always viewed point and click movement to be the intuitive way to navigate that's meant for casuals. Like browsing a web page, like playing a puzzle game, not for playing an action game. Forcing me to it is almost insulting, it's like the devs think we're too dumb to do it. It is simply forcing an handicap. In an action game, I expect to not just stand there and take hits and spam skills (usually 1-2 skills). I expect that I will have to move, avoid getting hit, hit with precision and the right time. Point and click simply make this harder. It seems that arpg players just want to do that.

                                2 more examples of games with top-down view and keyboard movement: Spiral Knights and Bastion. Melee in spiral knights isn't a problem, you just walk to your target and slash, and you hit everything in front. Of course you move alot, that's the point of an action game.