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  • Limiting exploits

    There was this answer in Medierra's IAmA :
    I actually think it worked fairly well and there isn't too much I'd want to change other than to correct some balancing problems with particular skills and equipment. It is a system that allows people to make mistakes but I don't think that is a bad thing as long as it isn't too unforgiving. The main thing I want to try to do better this time is to balance the distribution of attributes on various equipment types to prevent some of the imbalances that occurred on TQ, such as 100% dodge.
    What did you mean Medierra in the last sentence ? Do you want to avoid the player collecting items that give so much physique attribute or defensive ability that he reaches 100% dodge ? How is it possible to prevent it ? Assigning one bonus to only one item slot so that we can't stack them ?

    But if you mean preventing all TQ's well-known exploits (100% dodge attacks, 100% avoid projectiles, 100% shield block, 100% recharge time reduction, very high requirement reductions ...) by a simple way, can't we imagine a maximum cap for all those bonuses (which already exists in TQIT for resistances with 80%, armor protection with 66%, movement or attack speed) : for example 75% or 80% ?

    What do you think about that problem, you guys of Crate ?

  • #2
    I think he meant just putting a cap on all those imbalances. And I think it's necessary, kinda silly for a character to become immortal, and very ANTI FUN to play in a group when one player has 0 cooldown on his nukes.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
      I think he meant just putting a cap on all those imbalances. And I think it's necessary, kinda silly for a character to become immortal, and very ANTI FUN to play in a group when one player has 0 cooldown on his nukes.
      Aww man those were fun! But yeah, caps would be best. I still love a good bugged item though


      [WIP] [TQIT-Map]

      Grim Dawn Legendary Fan

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
        I think he meant just putting a cap on all those imbalances. And I think it's necessary, kinda silly for a character to become immortal, and very ANTI FUN to play in a group when one player has 0 cooldown on his nukes.
        totally agree. look at it the other way, having 80% to dodge is a lot. that's without counting armour absorption and such. 80% to avoid projectiles implies you only get hit 1 in 5. again, a lot.

        a cap would be a sure measure to keep characters humans not demi gods.

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        • #5
          I agree with you, a cap will be an easy way to balance all powerfull stats and it won't be less funny but even more.

          It would be interesting to have Crate's point of view about that.

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          • #6
            We had a similar discussion in Caps and breaking them. You can always cap values. Though I believe medierra prefers a solution, which does not require caps:
            Originally posted by medierra
            from TQ.net
            Having more different types of items to collect allows designers to better restrict where certain types of powerful bonuses can come from and in what quantity the player can accumulate them. This balancing scheme was not properly utilized in all cases though and it lead to problems like players being able to accumulate 100% cooldown reduction [in TQ] because that bonus appeared on some item types it was not supposed to be allowed on.

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            • #7
              thus utilize a cap to be on the safe side. imo it's simpler to implement a cap, even though the aim is to limit certain boni to their slots. just to be on the safe side, so to say.

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              • #8
                Thank you for the quote, I think working on item slots in order to assign each powerfull bonus to a limited number of slots is a very good way to balance it too, perhaps even more interesting than a cap ... if the devs have the time to design and use it properly. Not like in TQIT.

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                • #9
                  I'm not totally agree.
                  In TQIT, I built some toons with 100% dodge attack and 100% avoid projectiles.
                  In each case, it costed me a lot of time. Time for carefully studying the skills I had to chose, time to determine the equipment I needed, and of course time to farm the game in order to acquire it.
                  So yes, in the end I had some characters really powerful (but not immortal and I insist on this point : they had almost no resistances and a AOE attack or a 'reflect damage' ability could easily oneshot them). But honnestly, I think I had deserve it. It was really fun to play with them, it was like a supreme reward. And when I was tired of them, I just started another toon.

                  So, I'm not totally opposed to put a limitation for some bonuses in order to prevent exploits, but this cap should be wisely choosen. If the limitation is too strong (like 80% like the resistances in D2), the game could loose in interest for the players like me who specifically search for some specially optimised builds.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Yggdrasil View Post
                    I'm not totally agree.
                    In TQIT, I built some toons with 100% dodge attack and 100% avoid projectiles.
                    In each case, it costed me a lot of time. Time for carefully studying the skills I had to chose, time to determine the equipment I needed, and of course time to farm the game in order to acquire it.
                    So yes, in the end I had some characters really powerful (but not immortal and I insist on this point : they had almost no resistances and a AOE attack or a 'reflect damage' ability could easily oneshot them). But honnestly, I think I had deserve it. It was really fun to play with them, it was like a supreme reward. And when I was tired of them, I just started another toon.

                    So, I'm not totally opposed to put a limitation for some bonuses in order to prevent exploits, but this cap should be wisely choosen. If the limitation is too strong (like 80% like the resistances in D2), the game could loose in interest for the players like me who specifically search for some specially optimised builds.
                    Notice how there was no way to reach such a high dodge number in D2?... there's a reason for that.

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                    • #11
                      Sure ! I guess D2 devs wanted to prevent exploits in the ladder (and haven't enough imagination for finding a more elegant way than putting a hard limit cap).
                      But there's no ladder in TQ and GD, they're not competitive games. So if I want to build a 100% dodge character, does this bother anyone? I mean, nobody is forced to do the same. If you think it's not fun or cheating (and I totally respect that), you can limit yourself with more classical builds, I won't blame you.

                      (But in TQ, believe me, the long tortuous way for building a 100% dodge character from scratch was a real challenge, and when you finally reach your goal it was like a big satisfactory achievement.)

                      So really, I don't think putting max caps is a good idea. It limits the number of viable builds with the most frustrating way.

                      Originally posted by Medierra
                      Having more different types of items to collect allows designers to better restrict where certain types of powerful bonuses can come from and in what quantity the player can accumulate them. This balancing scheme was not properly utilized in all cases though and it lead to problems like players being able to accumulate 100% cooldown reduction [in TQ] because that bonus appeared on some item types it was not supposed to be allowed on.
                      That's a better way to prevent the exploits. It's less frustrating for the player. But again, is preventing exploits really absolutely necessary ? Wouldn't it be more intelligent to just make the exploits more difficult to perform ? If a player spend several hundred hours to collect rare equipement in order to have a 100% chance of something, shouldn't he have the right to play with his character the way he wants ?

                      PS : sorry for my atrocious english.

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                      • #12
                        Having caps is necessary for game balance, the amount of farming you had to do was next to nothing to achieve it. Haruspex had a maximum potential of reaching 55% dodge or so, JUST with his 2 passives. Not to mention he also has around 80% EXTRA Defensive ability. You only needed 1 or 2 items to hit +4 to all skill points (which is where the numbers above came from), and then 80% DA means with ONLY 400 DEX, the Harupsex can hit almost 800 DA. WITHOUT considering the stats of items as well.

                        Finding the gloves that give +3 to all skills, not very hard, just tedious. Maybe an hour or 2 of farming the gorgons, then you go to a town and just search for ONE item that gives 20% dodge. That's how I did my Haruspex, it literally didn't take me any effort at all to become invulnerable.

                        For any other class, maybe. But all classes should be balanced - and to do this, caps are absolutely necessary. All stats should have caps, whether there is a ladder or not, its no fun playing a game with other players who have no caps to certain stats. Having an ally who is invulnerable and just runs through the maps killing everything before you can get to him is not fun. Watching your ally spam squall or thunderbolt 5000x before you can even ENTER the room because of the lag, is not fun.

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                        • #13
                          Fortunately, you're not forced to play with someone you don't want.

                          Just use a tag "no exploit here" or something similar in the party you'll create, and kick the players who disrespect that (I hope there will be this option in the multiplayers in GD).

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