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  • [Bosses] How should they look like, behave, come to scene, their specific lore loot?

    Hey guys,


    I was searching for this, found almost no answer (the old ones we can refresh here for the devs to see again), and I think it's pretty good topic for a discussion. =)


    I am big fan of the following features speaking of boss monsters:

    - They should be large (Typhon? YES!), I just love when I see a monster with obviously a greater superiority to me.

    - They should be HARD (at least like Typhon before nerf, some TQ optional bosses, Hades), but the mechanics should be fair to player (you should be able to avoid insta-kills by either moving aside when the spell is being cast, or having resistances to the type of dmg).

    - They should take a while to beat (not ages, but I really hate what I see in D3 Beta now - King Leoric going down in ~4 hits, ridiculous even for the easiest difficulty). I loved "/players 8" command in D2, it was fun to beat bosses with it on Nightmare or even early Hell.

    - I like the idea I've read some game has (Dark Souls?), random set of abilities. In TQ or D2, it was very predictable of what the boss would do, I would love to see a list of abilities from which the boss would randomly pick one and use it. It would make the boss runs (=item farming) brilliant and NEVER boring.

    - I would like to see some thematic, or story-driven boss entrances.

    - I believe what is one of the most important things, is a lore loot, especially the one boss-connected. Remember the Butcher from Diablo 1? When I first played it, I can't even describe what a horror I felt at my young age, and what an awesome feelings I had when I got his bloody cleaver. =)

    - I like boss phases, each phases harder than the previous one.


    Some specific boss ideas:

    - An armored dude or a mutant holding a hand-gatling gun (modified, therefore hand-held). Whenever you took a percentage of "his" hitpoints, a part of "his" armor would drop, making him more and more furious.

    - Three ghost warriors or undead warriors, one with a gun, one with a melee weapon, one with grenades. You kill one, the other two became furious and gain some new abilities. Best would be if they inherit the abilities of the dead fellow. Making the last one the real badass boss with many strong abilities. =)


    Please, bring in some more interesting ideas for a discussion. =)
    --TQ:IT Death Effects Mod maker (DEM), Former ASYLUMSMOD, Masteries & Krater(alpha) Tester, Masteries Calculator maker--

    Thorough GD info here: www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=71628&postcount=1

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    "Boxed Deluxe Edition" support

  • #2
    Actually I personally prefer bosses that aren't HUGE. I'd like to have some normal human bosses as well. Maybe some commander that summons waves of normal enemies on your ass while you try to beat him down.

    Also would like some very sneaky guys/gals which would be very cunning co-workers. Maybe one melee and one ranged, both capable of moving at fast speeds, maybe the one getting hit could initiate stealth to slip away for a couple of seconds and make your life more miserable from shadows somehow.

    I don't know, these are just from top of my head, but seriously, the actual boss design doesn't matter to me as much as how the mechanics work out. My number one priority would be RANDOMIZED elements on enemy movesets so that you CAN'T memorize the patterns so you can always avoid the moves with muscle memory... For example some boss could drop shitloads meteors on you, at randomized locations on battlefield, not predefined, maybe giving a second or two to see where it's gonna land so you can move out of the way. This could be seriously used to very many boss moves to make the more dynamic.

    And yeah, one of the fun things that could bring some immersion would be the environments where to meet the bosses. Imagine running though long corridor while the only things you'll encounter are hanging meat and piles of bodies, some dismembered too, all while hearing some creepy ambient sounds. Would give a player nice momentum and time to think what the hell is coming soon...

    And then you hear "Ahhhh... Fresh meat!".

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Shinrou View Post
      Actually I personally prefer bosses that aren't HUGE. I'd like to have some normal human bosses as well. Maybe some commander that summons waves of normal enemies on your ass while you try to beat him down.
      Definitely. The three warriors I mentioned as an example were meant to have normal size as well. I should have said before I would like if they were kind of "real" in size, meaning humanoids should have similar size or a bit larger size compared to a player, but mutants and other monsters should be larger, and some really huge. =) Dunno, I just miss big bosses of the old days, can't help it. =)

      Originally posted by Shinrou View Post
      I don't know, these are just from top of my head, but seriously, the actual boss design doesn't matter to me as much as how the mechanics work out. My number one priority would be RANDOMIZED elements on enemy movesets so that you CAN'T memorize the patterns so you can always avoid the moves with muscle memory... For example some boss could drop shitloads meteors on you, at randomized locations on battlefield, not predefined, maybe giving a second or two to see where it's gonna land so you can move out of the way. This could be seriously used to very many boss moves to make the more dynamic.
      Yeah, fights being random is probably the best element that comes to my mind when fightning bosses in this type of games.

      Originally posted by Shinrou View Post
      And yeah, one of the fun things that could bring some immersion would be the environments where to meet the bosses. Imagine running though long corridor while the only things you'll encounter are hanging meat and piles of bodies, some dismembered too, all while hearing some creepy ambient sounds. Would give a player nice momentum and time to think what the hell is coming soon...

      And then you hear "Ahhhh... Fresh meat!".
      Ahhh...what a lovely image you made in my head with that.. =)
      --TQ:IT Death Effects Mod maker (DEM), Former ASYLUMSMOD, Masteries & Krater(alpha) Tester, Masteries Calculator maker--

      Thorough GD info here: www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=71628&postcount=1

      Best music label of all times: www.g7welcomingcommittee.com/

      "Boxed Deluxe Edition" support

      Comment


      • #4
        apart from really huge bosses, and commanders of legions of soldiers (terracoota soldiers in mind, perhaps in UBER:P!), randomization could be the aspect linking fun with farming. it becomes boring to, say, always retreat when typhon has spikes, or dodge meteors, but, having a variety of skills would ensure a good variety of toughness, and spontaneous play.

        i also liked bosses which are somewhat hidden, for example the quest of psyche's mirror, i always knew i had to go in the cave, but i always managed to miss it, maybe even because of the terrain.

        i also liked the sisters, which had the eye to empower them.

        i think no boss is a petmancer though...

        lore loot is also a good idea; i always had the wish to equip typhon's belt, even if i mainly wanted it just to make me look like a badass bully!

        Comment


        • #5
          First the boss must be randomized. Grim Dawn is not a rail shooter.
          What can be randomized :
          Randomize the attack pattern, if have one, not always summon minion, charge, magic 1, charge, magic 2, charge, go back summon...
          Randomize the attack possible, a boss might have 10 kind of magic, but just randomly pick up 5 each combat.
          Randomize appearance, maybe more for unique monsters than boss, but randomize the color/scale/body part always add variety.

          Multiple battle phase/encounter, I like when you have to beat a boss in different form multiple time, but only if story driven.
          Huge boss, so huge that you can see/fight only a little part at time, Freud says that is to compensate my "ego".
          Unique abilities, A boss that cast the same flame orb than the player of a weak enemy, but just bigger isn't nice. I like when boss (and their arena) show unique proprieties. In TQ there is the frost giant that cast an avalanche of ice, it's the only monster that do that and even if easy to beat, I love this boss. A suggestion, a boss nearly invisible (like the predator), a boss that can push/pull the player, walls with indestructible arrow turrets...
          Allies to fight, if you don't play multiplayer in TQ, you are always alone (or with summoned pets). The first cyclops when some spartan charge, it's different, fun and epic. I want more of that.
          Unbalanced, I don't mind if a boss must be attacked with ranged means, it's unbalanced for melee characters, but if it's a secondary boss, why not?

          You must have a kraken-like boss that attack you with his tentacles during all the way up to his body (I mean a whole sea-coast level full of turtles).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by varsovie View Post
            First the boss must be randomized. Grim Dawn is not a rail shooter.
            And TQ, with its non-random bosses, was?


            Interesting topic and many interesting ideas. I'd love to see bosses interact more with the environment. Hiding in a wall, activating traps and calling his friends.

            Another one is for the boss to pick up weapons or refill his weapons using stuff nearby. Like filling his ammo-thing/backpack with some ridiculous stuff like lava or plutonium as ammo for his rifle, modifying his damage output and attack effect+animation.

            (... or giving birth to a deadly Boss-Monster Jr. in real-time, or growing a boomerang moustache, or "I choose you, Pikachu!")
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            Comment


            • #7
              I have only one wish. To be able to kill at least one huge boss. Nothing more to add, because the thread is full of good ideas.
              Look into the face of the enemy, and rejoice!
              For to stand before him, to bask in his fury,
              is to tell him that you fear him not,
              and that he is within a sword-thrust of destruction.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree that bosses should be big. For the most part, Demons Souls/ Dark Souls fits the bill nicely, with large & menacing bosses.

                Personally, I would also like to see bosses that visually take damage.
                While it is nice to have a health bar, I would also like to see some damage shown to the boss as well. Maybe some bone or muscle showing, dripping blood, severed bits of flesh, etc..
                I just think it would add to the EPICness of whittling down an enemy over time if damage was shown by something other than just a health bar.

                Multiple ways to defeat a boss are always nice, but not really necessary.
                For example, having environmental ways of damaging a boss would be nice. Luring it front or below a hazard and then triggering it for some bonus damage would go a long way in variety.
                Some bosses could even have multiple stages.

                Another thing I like (that I didn't know I liked until Demons Souls) is when a boss has a weapon. If a boss is big enough, it doesn't really need a weapon, but it makes it more intense when it does. After all, your character has a weapon, why not then a boss. It could be a huge club, an axe or spear, or whatever.

                Another thing I would like to see to some degree is an execution kill.
                Not a quick time event per se, but the opportunity to perform a gruesome final attack that is brutal to watch.
                For example, say a boss is beaten near to death, and begins it's fatigue animation and is just panting.....
                You can then get up close to it, perform a button click (or two or three), and you can maybe decapitate it, or run it through with your sword, or whatever, for a finishing move.
                If you fail to execute the move, then the boss gets a 2nd wind and gains a little bit more health.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As for boss design....

                  One of the boss designs that I can picture is a huge cyclopian brute with two heads. Scaly or rough skin, and maybe a horn on one or both of its heads.
                  In one harm it has a ranged weapon like a ball & chain that it swings & throws at you, and in the other a shorter ranged weapon like a club, mace, or axe.

                  For a finishing move, you could disembowel it, and have its guts spill out onto the floor.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Three words: Toxeus the Murderer

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We have to keep in mind - while bosses with custom death animations, a dozen special attacks and, er... removable body parts would be pretty darn fun, they also require a lot of ressources to create. It's actually hard to think of good ideas to enhance the gameplay ( or boss fights, in particular ) with a minimal investment of time and money from the developers.

                      I think the visual damage on bosses could potentially be done simply using a few alternate textures, which would be loaded once the boss HP drops below a certain percentage. Just use the finished boss texture as basis, paint on some exposed muscles, blood and so on - perhaps even have multiple levels of visual damage for some of the bigger bosses. There could be some sort of "blood explosion" when the next texture is loaded, or it could just fade in gradually.

                      As for the gameplay, I'm all for harder boss-battles! Now, I'm still playing Dark Souls, and also played Demon's Souls in the past, so perhaps due to that I've developed some masochistic tendencies... In any case, I firmly believe that a good video game boss should not only be tough, it should also be horrifying on a psychological level, especially for a game in this genre/setting. The first time you encounter a new boss, it should make you wet your pants ( well, maybe not literally ), before it proceeds to rip your character apart in a few hits, leaving you wondering what the heck just happened.

                      Ideally, it should take at least two or three attempts to defeat a boss monster - possibly a lot more for some of the end-game and optional creatures - and it should make you feel relieved and accomplished when you finally manage to pull it off.

                      What's the point of a huge scary mutant thing, if you can just walk right over it on your first attempt... ? It makes sense from the developer's point of view, as well: They spend more time on the boss encounters than most other parts of the game, and all that seems wasted when the average player can just breeze right through first try. Make the players spend some time with your creations, force them to study their attack patterns and weaknesses, make them respect their opponent and earn their victory!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pts View Post
                        And TQ, with its non-random bosses, was?
                        Mostly dull, I beat Typhon with ranged attack without being hit.

                        There was more challenge against tigers in act 3 than any Boss battle. And believe me, I never farm or grind.

                        So yeah, harder, bigger, random and EPIC!

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