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  • Level of difficulty

    I have not found a concrete thread to this but I would suggest to make the game much more difficult than TitanQuest was which was way to simple (even with the PlayerX difficulty mods).

  • #2
    We've discussed this somewhere in more detail but the short answer is that normal mode won't be too much more challenging if you play through it slowly. If you push ahead, it will quickly become more difficult.

    We do plan to make Epic about as difficult as Legendary in TQ and Legendary will be quite tough. There will also be hardcore mode.

    Another bonus for those seeking a challenge, is that given the way the maps are constructed, it will be possible to finish Normal more quickly if you just want to press ahead and get into Epic. The idea is that there is less sheer distance to run if you follow the shortest route through the game since the areas are less linear and more voluminous. Progress is gated more by the volume of quests and leveling / difficulty than the distance you need to run down a linear path.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by medierra View Post
      We've discussed this somewhere in more detail but the short answer is that normal mode won't be too much more challenging if you play through it slowly. If you push ahead, it will quickly become more difficult.

      We do plan to make Epic about as difficult as Legendary in TQ and Legendary will be quite tough. There will also be hardcore mode.

      Another bonus for those seeking a challenge, is that given the way the maps are constructed, it will be possible to finish Normal more quickly if you just want to press ahead and get into Epic. The idea is that there is less sheer distance to run if you follow the shortest route through the game since the areas are less linear and more voluminous. Progress is gated more by the volume of quests and leveling / difficulty than the distance you need to run down a linear path.
      So is it basically confirmed you aren't going to do a random layout of dungeons ala Diablo?

      I'm not really complaining, just wondering.
      Now playing:

      PC: Mount and Blade : Napoleonic Wars, League of Legends, Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne.

      PS3: ---

      Waiting for: Grim Dawn, Warcraft 4.

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      • #4
        Random map/dungeon generation is great, but not necessary.

        I would personally like to see the dungeons/caves you can go into be a bit larger, a majority of them were very small in TQ

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        • #5
          When talking about what difficulty a game should have, or how challenging/hard it should be, I recommend watching this first:

          http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...454-Easy-Games

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          • #6
            Originally posted by medierra View Post
            We've discussed this somewhere in more detail
            There were multiple discussions ... these are the ones with feedback from medierra: #1 #2 #3

            hooby - the video is great. As an incentive for those who haven't watched it: It's about depth and accessibility ... regarding this I just stumbled upon:
            Originally posted by medierra View Post
            This always bothered me about TQ but the directive I was given early on was that the game had to be "accessible to casual players" and that too much information would just confuse them. So the decision was that we should just hide information... I was also told that presenting too many numbers to the player made the game feel like "playing a spreadsheet". Personally I love playing spreadsheets when it comes to ARPG.
            Well, playing spreadsheets might not develop accessibilty. When playing TQ I sometimes lack details, which sort of damage and/or modifier stacks (or does not) with others. The game could be more difficult, if synergies were clearer. Or if the character screen would not display values like weapon damage and total armour. The are misleading, as weapon damage does not take skills into account and as you need to consider each body zone's armour separately.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by eisprinzessin View Post
              Well, playing spreadsheets might not develop accessibilty. When playing TQ I sometimes lack details, which sort of damage and/or modifier stacks (or does not) with others. The game could be more difficult, if synergies were clearer. Or if the character screen would not display values like weapon damage and total armour. The are misleading, as weapon damage does not take skills into account and as you need to consider each body zone's armour separately.
              Well, I personally prefer being able to see ALL the numbers too. That helps alot when planning a build, to be able to know what each attribute point and skill rink will exactly provide to the game.

              In terms of accessability it helps alot, if weapons feature a "DPS" number - which calculates some average damage from all bonuses, special damage types, speed/damage improvements, etc.

              For players who don't want to go into detail, there is one single number for comparison. Bigger number, better item - switch it. Done. To not confuse more casual players the full stats of an item could stay hidden. I am thinking of a little (+) sign, which you can click to expand the view to show full stats. If the game then keeps that expanded status until you close it again - that would be perfect.

              Same thing goes for armor and other items.

              The other thing is how you display information. If your weapon stats actually look like a spread-sheet, a table with different descriptors and values, orderen in rows and columns, you are more likely to disgust some players, than if you wrap that up in a more neat and goodlooking way.

              Instead of having written: "fire-damage: 22", there should be a little, red flamelike icon, with "22" on top of it. If there are multiple such icons, order them, so that one with the biggest number comes first.

              I believe stuff like that helps too.

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              • #8
                Great video behind that link actually - much appreciated!
                For the "spreadsheet" stuff I agree though a few more figures wouldnt hurt


                Im currently playing Tital Quest I.T. with PlayerX 6 difficulty mod with a friend of mine and it was way to easy so I came up with the following thing which made the game much more challenging and pretty "WOW!":

                Our characters were at level 19 in first level of difficulty
                -> I used the souldseekor editor to unlock "epic" level of difficulty
                -> I also leveled the two characters to level 32
                -> I set the last waypoint we had reached also for the epic game mode so we started from the same location where we were in standard level of difficulty
                -> enemies had level ~41-48
                -> the items we had were not from epic

                => and there we go - the game became really really challenging and cool - this is the proper level of difficulty the game should have as standard/default

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                • #9
                  Personally, I would like to see actual difficulty modes in addition to Normal/Epic/Legendary. Those modes would make the game much more difficult and challanging form the beginning. Something like the Mod Lilith for TQ had.

                  When I played TQ, I really enjoyed the game, but personally, I found it just waaaaaaaaaay to easy, smashing though everything without ease. It was still fun, yeah, but I am always looking for a challange.

                  What I liked about the mod Lilith (completed in MP on Legendary on highest difficulty!) that you are constantly on the verge of death.
                  The good thing about it was it was really hard, but in most cases (except a few bosses) possible to win if you played really well as a team and perfected timing and equipment. It gave me much more of blast then TQ did and same goes for the friend I played with.

                  So I'd suggest adding actual difficulty modes; how those will be done is up to the devs, but there could be something like this:

                  Easy -> Easier then TQ, should be beatable by everyone without any "problems"
                  Normal -> Like TQ, having a moderate difficulty for casuals
                  Hard -> Harder then TQ, giving causuals a hard time
                  Very Hard -> 'Normal' mode for hardcore players
                  Extreme -> hard time for hardcore players
                  Insane -> edge of impossbility

                  In multiplayer those difficulties would be visble aswell, so people can choose the difficulty appropinate for them.

                  What could change with higher difficulty:
                  -> Higher HP monsters
                  -> Faster monsters (increased attack rate, movement speed, hit recovery)
                  -> More monsters (with reduced EXP, so that whilst there are more monsters, you won't get more EXP)
                  -> Additional bosses
                  -> Monsters unlock certain skills that are not available on lower difficulties, making them thougher to beat (for example, some start regenerating HP on difficulties byond hard and on insane they also get a life drain ability)
                  -> Mosters become more resistent to crits/elemental damage and have a higher chance of doing crits themselves
                  -> Character penalities (though I think they should be exclusive to Epic/Lengendary)
                  -> Other penalities, eg you can't take healing poitions as often or can carry less
                  Last edited by Omega_K2; 06-18-2011, 03:06 AM. Reason: link now actually points to the mod version i played though on that diff :P
                  Legendary Fan.

                  So...you kill Typhon, a titan, and after that, you go for a stroll on the beach. The first crab you see on that beach nearly takes your leg off. Some days are like that and today is one of those days.

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                  • #10
                    I don't want to anger anyone but isn't an ARPG pretty much a casual genre of game?

                    You load it up and within 10 seconds you've mastered clicking a monster until it dies then swapping your current thing with the one you just picked up that has bigger numbers.

                    And that's pretty much what we want, GD may turn out more enjoyable but I can't see what will make it any less casual.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tenka View Post
                      I don't want to anger anyone but isn't an ARPG pretty much a casual genre of game?

                      You load it up and within 10 seconds you've mastered clicking a monster until it dies then swapping your current thing with the one you just picked up that has bigger numbers.

                      And that's pretty much what we want, GD may turn out more enjoyable but I can't see what will make it any less casual.
                      Yes, the lower difficulty levels (Normal, maybe Epic) are for casuals. =)

                      I am too lazy to search for it now, but Medierra said, he wants the GD to be more for hardcore audience..
                      --TQ:IT Death Effects Mod maker (DEM), Former ASYLUMSMOD, Masteries & Krater(alpha) Tester, Masteries Calculator maker--

                      Thorough GD info here: www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?p=71628&postcount=1

                      Best music label of all times: www.g7welcomingcommittee.com/

                      "Boxed Deluxe Edition" support

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                      • #12
                        Well, regarding the difficulty of the game:

                        The three difficulties such as normal, epic and legendary are fine, they should just be more balanced. In TQ Act 1 and 2 in Epic are kind of a joke because they are much easier to beat than Act 4 in normal. The difficulty should raise in a straight way and not go down and up and down and up.... Same thing with Typhoon in Act 3. The game is in normal mode just too easy, till you reach the olymp. Suddenly it's hard as hell and typhoon kicks your ass.
                        A difficulty which is always rising, challenging, but still beatable, would be great.

                        Personally I would suggest that difficulty raises for each difficulty lever (such as normal, epic, legendary) constantly. When reaching a new difficulty level the difficulty should remarkably jump to a higher level and then raise again constantly.

                        A problem which always occurs regarding the difficulty is that some players play selffound and others share their stuff. Those who share their stuff will be in advantage and think the game is too easy while the selffound players might think it's too hard. In this case a difficulty system such as Lilith offered could make sense. For example, the monsters could deal more damage or have a health regeneration etc. When activating this, the monster should also give slightly higher experience.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Omega_K2 View Post
                          Easy -> Easier then TQ, should be beatable by everyone without any "problems"
                          Normal -> Like TQ, having a moderate difficulty for casuals
                          Hard -> Harder then TQ, giving causuals a hard time
                          Very Hard -> 'Normal' mode for hardcore players
                          Extreme -> hard time for hardcore players
                          Insane -> edge of impossbility
                          Holy Typhon ! And you plan to beat the game 6 whole times with every character ?
                          Using froggy english since 1973.

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                          • #14
                            No, you would choose your difficulty from that list for playing Normal, Epic, Legendary and Hardcore modes.
                            Last edited by eisprinzessin; 06-20-2011, 11:57 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Is it possible that some sliders could be unlocked after beating 'legendary' the first time? I.e (replacing types with GD suitable ones where necessary):

                              Slider 1 - lower or greater chance of enemies having immunities, can be turned off completely or set that all have them

                              Slider 2 - lower or greater chance of enemies having pierce/vitality/bleed/magic etc resistance/damage

                              Slider 3 - General enemy strength, either lower or higher HP/MP, DA/OA.

                              Slider 4 - Enemy multiplier - 2, 3 or 4 x common enemies, 2x unique monster and bosses etc.

                              If doable, do you think it could allow for a greater replayability? Once you've played through as the game is designed to be played, you can customise the game for different play styles or set challenges to others, i.e. Host a persistent game with those settings and invite others to play through with them.
                              Last edited by Gumshoe; 06-21-2011, 12:12 AM.

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