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  • #31
    Originally posted by Malpheas View Post
    Yeah, totally. I wonder if the posted "alpha and beta" are not mysnomers and that they will have a formal beta test.

    I remember Sacred, where they "beta" tested Sacred Plus v1.826; what a disaster that was.

    As we get closer to release of pre-release versions, I get more excited at how it will be done.
    Well, all those names were off already to begin with.

    Originally in software development, the "alpha phase" started with the first line of code being written (and "pre-alpha" was the research + planning phase before actual implementation).

    "Beta" started at the milestone of reaching the point of "feature completeness" - which means everything is finished, no more new things will be added - and it's all about testing and bug-fixing now. That's reason why it was called "Beta-testing".

    Beta phase ended the moment the software was finished and finalized (mostly the date of shipping).

    After that, the software was called "final" or "stable", or in some rare cases: "gamma".


    If you look at games nowadays, then the real beta-phase of a game (the point of feature stop where nothing new gets added afterwards) starts when the release-day patch is finished (at the soonest).

    What's generally called "alpha testing", "beta testing" and "open beta testing" is just like three different testing stages, that all happen during the alpha phase of the software.

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    • #32
      Uh, to be frank, that opens up a can of worms if anyone cares to read in to it.

      But that's cool, I didn't realise the actual implementation stages.

      Cheers,

      Malph
      It may also be surprising to know that some players prefer different play-styles.
      It is not censorship, it is called Whack a mole.
      I guess it only makes sense for Ghosts'n Goblins to go online. I mean, online is the current realm of people running around in their underwear, and Ghosts'n Goblins pretty much invented running around in your underwear.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by medierra View Post
        Chance to hit / hit avoidance are about the most visually obvious combat mechanic effects in the game, so why would we want to remove these? It also provides a very obvious balancing feedback loop - when you start to wiff, you need to increase whatever attribute boosts your chance to hit.

        In TQ you had to have really low OA to wiff and long before that you started to suffer from reduced damage / lack of critical damage increase and dex / str bonus increases. This left some players wondering why they were taking so long to kill enemies. When you just have low damage, it isn't as obvious that there is something wrong with your attributes. People may just believe that they've had bad luck finding a good weapon or didn't allocate their skill point well.
        Well, I just read that they removed Attack Rating from Diablo 3. In effect, players will have a base chance to miss of 5% on most basic melee attacks, and less then that on some skills, and even 100% chance to hit on most resource intensive skills.

        Their reasoning to do this was to focus the game-play around skills and actions that mattered and not "spread sheets." They also said that simply "maxing out hit chance wasn't really a fun mechanic." However, they also said that because they removed Hit rating they were able to add many more varied stats to the game. So people who like to spread-sheet wouldn't be necessarily left in the dust. (As if they wouldn't be to begin with?)

        Anyways, the reason I bring this up, is because it appears that they are focusing on game-play mechanics that deal with the action of skills and stats that effect a character in different ways.

        Most of the complaints I saw about the removal of Attack Rating essentially boiled done to these 5 arguments:

        1. Somehow the amount of variable builds in the game would be reduced.

        2. The game is being 'dumbed down."

        3. Skill would now be based on who can click the fastest.

        4. Player's won't feel like they're "training" their character.

        5. All builds will consist only of the highest attack / crit possible.

        My personal rebuttals to those arguments -

        1. The number of stats actually being added to the game because of this removal out-weigh the number of potential variable builds AR would have brought to the table.

        2. The game is actually going to be more complex because skills will need to be used more effectively to over-come encounters.

        3. Skills have cool-downs and they are based on strategic positioning of the mouse and timed clicks / button presses, this should be more complex then ever due to the higher number of "active" skills.

        4. If your character is supposed to be the "Hero" of the game, why is it that he should have a harder time hitting enemies in later acts of the game? Sure, enemies would get stronger, but so would your Hero. If this is supposed to be an "actiony" game then missing your opponents more often is a detriment to that goal.

        5. Crit and attack are only 2 main stats (In D3), we do not know how many other secondary stats exist yet. So we can not say that all builds would / should consist of only those two stats.

        I bring this up Medierra, mainly so that we can review potential flaws or weaknesses to their decisions. I personally feel fine about their decision, but I'd like to hear what our community thinks. Of course I can predict a few people who will invariably disagree with this direction. I've got nothing against the direction Grim Dawn is going.

        My main reasoning for even touching topics like these are to hopefully make Grim Dawn a better game by comparison.
        Last edited by Scryer; 02-08-2011, 12:18 AM.
        _______
        Legendary Fan & KickStart Supporter

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        • #34
          It's fine imo.

          It's an interesting concept, but it worked in D2 (somewhat), it worked in TQ (muuuuch better than D2 might I add), it will continue to work in GD, I see no reason to change it.

          By saying "he's a hero, he shouldn't miss" is silly, because you can argue all sorts of things following that logic.

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          • #35
            I never was that big a fan of OA and DA mechanics (mostly translates to AR and armor in D2), they were redundant and felt unnatural.
            First off, because I like chance-to-proc builds, but other than that, I'm not a big fan of chances. If I face an enemy, I don't want to get unlucky by getting critted to death, nor I don't want to win a bossfight by a lucky crit and dodge. They're not really part of your playerskill. In my experience, toin cosses should be reduced/avoided as much as possible in all games.
            Secondly, they're obscure mechanics. DA in TQ was overly complicated. I might be mistaken as I got kinda confused with the whole spreadsheet stuff, but iirc, not only did it reduce chance to hit, it also reduced incoming damage on hits. It was hard to measure the effect, but to me it was also hard to judge what I was doing wrong. Perhaps monsters were just suddenly stronger as part of balancing - or was it that my DA should be boosted?
            Thirdly, apart from outside information, there's no way to tell how much points you should sink into what attributes to get a good pay-off. Not being able to respec attribute points kinda forced players to look up the information on the net. Which, ofcourse, was great for titanquest.net.

            I don't mind attributes and attribute points, I do have problems with chance and non-transparant mechanics though.


            For D3 it's logical they'll remove AR, as they also deciced to remove manual attribute allocation. That closed the door on that decision.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
              By saying "he's a hero, he shouldn't miss" is silly, because you can argue all sorts of things following that logic.
              That's true.

              Maybe I should change my rebuttal to #4:

              - You can get the same effect of "training" based on skills and player skill, without the need to resort to arbitrary misses.

              That sounds a little better.
              _______
              Legendary Fan & KickStart Supporter

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              • #37
                Completely off topic, but the first post in here mentioned some of the attributes that will be present in Grim Dawn: is there any official topic listing the different attributes that so far will make it to the game? Sorry if this question was asked before, I did a quick search around the forum and did not find any official topic.
                - Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Ftaghn!
                - Gesundheit.

                My channel (aka "proof that I am really wasting my time with random things"):

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Xss View Post
                  Completely off topic, but the first post in here mentioned some of the attributes that will be present in Grim Dawn: is there any official topic listing the different attributes that so far will make it to the game? Sorry if this question was asked before, I did a quick search around the forum and did not find any official topic.
                  Yes Medierra has posted them several times, just wait for einzprincessen or w/e his name is to dig it out... no offense, your name is just hard to spell!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by yerkyerk View Post
                    If I face an enemy, I don't want to get unlucky by getting critted to death, nor I don't want to win a bossfight by a lucky crit and dodge. They're not really part of your playerskill. In my experience, toin cosses should be reduced/avoided as much as possible in all games.
                    But well, Armor Values, Skills and Stats are not playerskill either.

                    Whether those values are modified by dice rolls (like 10 + rand(1-5)) or if they are fixed (like 12) does not change the fact, that they are not playerbased at all.

                    The die roles are only neccessary, because without them you'd have hard breaks... You would _always_ hit any enemy up to a certain level, and monsters above that level you could _never_ hit. So they do work with chances - % chance to hit.

                    If you want to go full playerskill you'd have to remove all of that stuff. No Attributes, no Skills, no Classes, no different Armors, nothing at all. Pure, plain shooter in a fantasy setting.

                    Then only DPI of your mouse, and the speed of you ping be like your base stats. And your hand-eye coordination, and mouse-hand-reflexes your skills.

                    I prefer my die rolls. I want to build a character that does improve, get stronger, wears better equipment.

                    I don't necessarily want to train my mouse-hand reflexes and mouse aim skills and have only those decide on how far I can get in the game.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
                      Yes Medierra has posted them several times, just wait for einzprincessen or w/e his name is to dig it out... no offense, your name is just hard to spell!
                      "Eisprinzessin" translates to "ice princess". Maybe that's easier to spell for you
                      It even sounds quite similar. Just say "Ice printsess in", and there you are. Almost.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by hooby View Post
                        "Eisprinzessin" translates to "ice princess". Maybe that's easier to spell for you
                        It even sounds quite similar. Just say "Ice printsess in", and there you are. Almost.
                        I know what it means, but I still don't know how to spell it in german without looking at it. I'd rather someone try spelling my nick than calling me ASILE101

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                        • #42
                          I have been summoned? Yuck - by young master Asylum101, who's neglected to level his incantation skill. Woe is with me. Xss - see my summary on page 3 in this thread. Edit: Or read medierra's post on page 2.
                          Last edited by eisprinzessin; 02-08-2011, 05:22 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by hooby View Post
                            But well, Armor Values, Skills and Stats are not playerskill either.
                            Yes, they are! It's your decision what you equip, which skills you select and how you distribute your attribute points. If this didn't require skill, then these guides (skills; attributes) would have never come to light.

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                            • #44
                              All right, thanks a lot for the links!
                              - Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Ftaghn!
                              - Gesundheit.

                              My channel (aka "proof that I am really wasting my time with random things"):

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by eisprinzessin View Post
                                Yes, they are! It's your decision what you equip, which skills you select and how you distribute your attribute points. If this didn't require skill, then these guides (skills; attributes) would have never come to light.
                                Well if you see it that way, then dice rolls are player skill too, since by leveling up a skill you can get your chance to hit from 20% up to 80% (random numbers), or the weapon you equip decides how big your damage die will be.

                                If you remove dice rolls, you remove that kind of possibility. You can't have "chance to hit" a fixed number - with no % chance. So if hitting would actually be based on twitch skills, this would mean that your decisions on what to equip, which skills to select etc. get less important/meaningfull, since they don't cover chance to hit or other effects.

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