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  • Mastery Respecs are Good for the Game

    Masteries are much like classes, you pick and combine 2 different types of masteries to create your own style of play.

    Some people pick masteries that they don't end up enjoying, or that they end up not liking.

    When this happens people have 1 option and only 1 option that is to remake their character, and level them up again.

    Giving players the option to respec their masteries at high levels for a high cost may help alleviate this problem and give players a new goal.

    Mastery respec is not cheating, in fact it'd be an option given to every player. How many times have you leveled a mastery and realized "I really hate the way this guy plays!"? I have more then once.

    Finally, how many games don't let you change your class the way a mastery respec would let you? What's wrong with giving the player an option, even if it's a very hard to attain option?

    I say break away from tradition. How does mastery respec break the game if it's hard to do? Why does giving the option make the game worse? If you can't answer these questions sufficiently, then you are arbitrarily taking away an option from the player base.

    I put it to you that it would make the game better, and much more flexible. The game's purpose is to collect gear, modify gear, and gain power. Why should a player be limited to their initial masteries especially if they ended up not liking them? If they do like their masteries then mastery respec is not needed, it's just an option!

    - Two Things About Implementation -

    - Make mastery respecs either only available at only really high levels, or at lower levels (- 30, or + 180)

    - Make Mastery respec a VERY high cost.

    - Or give it a Very High cost and make it limited per character. (I.E. not unlimited respecs, just limited)

    Ultimately, I think this will give players another goal, and another gold sink. It will give the game a ton of re-playability especially if you know you won't F-up your masteries and be stuck with them and be forced to create a new character.

    Sometimes it can be frustrating to create a new character, level his masteries in all faith, then find out it doesn't work well or you don't like the mastery selections. Mastery respecs would help eliminate the need to create a new character and go through the motions "just to get it right" so to speak.

    We want gold to be important right? Well, mastery respec would be an expensive option. I think it would be awesome.
    Last edited by Scryer; 10-29-2010, 03:06 AM.
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Scryer View Post
    Masteries are much like classes, you pick and combine 2 different types of masteries to create your own style of play.
    Yes

    Some people pick masteries that they don't end up enjoying, or that they end up not liking.

    When this happens people have 1 option and only 1 option that is to remake their character, and level them up again.
    Yes

    Mastery respec is not cheating, in fact it'd be an option given to every player. How many times have you leveled a mastery and realized "I really hate the way this guy plays!"? I have more then once.
    Probably twice out of my many chars (and it wasn't a mastery by itself, but the combination of two masteries which did not end up being the way I would have wanted it to be).

    Finally, how many games don't let you change your class the way a mastery respec would let you?
    Every single one ? I do not know of a single game where you can change your class / mastery at a later time.

    What's wrong with giving the player an option, even if it's a very hard to attain option?

    I say break away from tradition. How does mastery respec break the game if it's hard to do? Why does giving the option make the game worse? If you can't answer these questions sufficiently, then you are arbitrarily taking away an option from the player base.
    Define hard, respeccing skills cost money which in the end meant it was essentially free as you had more money than you would ever need.

    I certainly would not want mastery respeccing as something along those lines. You should have to work for it, along the lines of speccing out of the mastery you want to get rid of completely and then completing one region (size of Egypt or so) with the mastery you want to keep and at the end of that, spend all your money (with some ungodly minimum amount like 50 million or so, so you cannot simply invest your money away - this might need to be adjusted based on how much money you get in GD and the level the char is at) at some guy who rids you of the mastery, so you are free to choose another one. Maybe you need to sacrifice a unique item or two on top of that, just so it really hurts (and not some of the lame ones you found a long time ago and haven't been using for ages).

    Quite frankly, the process should be 'painful'.

    You also are allowed to change a mastery once or twice only on any char, no more than that.

    With a low limit on this, the 'preparation' for speccing out of a mastery could maybe be somewhat less drastic, if there is no limit, the above certainly is the absolute minimum required to spec out of one

    This to me is pretty much the only scenario in which I would be ok with even offering the option.

    What is wrong with having the option to me is that if it is just based on money, it becomes next to free given how much money you made in TQ (and assuming something similar happens in GD), so you could change masteries at will / whenever you feel like it, requiring you to only play one char and still experiencing all available builds.

    Having more options does not make for a better game. Level restrictions on skills and stat requirements on gear also restrict options, not having them would be detrimental to the game however. I feel the same way about the option to change masteries, it does not add value to me, it takes value away.

    Having it be very painful remedies that by taking the option to switch masteries at will away while leaving the option open for someone who really, really, really feels like the built he ended up with sucks due to one of the masteries he chose.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mamba View Post
      I feel the same way about the option to change masteries, it does not add value to me, it takes value away.
      Explain specifically what value is taken away without giving an analogy.

      Other games don't allow you to respec classes because of how classes are set up. FFXI let you change classes and level them up at will, this was absolutely fun.

      However, leveling up a character and having all the points available to you at max level isn't much of a stretch. Because of how masteries work, even a limited mastery respec isn't something that would break the game.

      Beyond that, mastery respec doesn't have to be unlimited. Gold doesn't have to drop in large quantities and Gold doesn't have to be the only requirement.
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      • #4
        I'm all for stat and kill respeccing, but I'm not sure on this one; it's like in Diablo 2 when you're tired of your Barbarian and suddenly opt to respec it in a Necromancer and take away from the uniqueness of your character.
        It would take incentive away to start over with a new character. Not just theorycrafting, personally, in D2 (and TQIT) I would start over a character several times if I had gotten a few attribute points assigned in the wrong attributes - not that that was a great thing as it was essentially the same character with a minor difference, but a whole new set of skills would be enough to justify a new playthrough).

        On the other hand, if you're really stuck with a mastery you don't like (which seems to be the only reason why I'd want to see such a system), you shouldn't be forced to start all over again.

        What about putting a (painful) mastery respec system in place, but also a way to really lock masteries than? If you lock/finalize your mastery, you can't respec it anymore, but you'll also get a nice stat and skillpoint bonus (or a bonus skill on your chosen masteries)? Perhaps could be done at a special trainer, who will teach you to master your mastery.
        Last edited by yerkyerk; 10-29-2010, 11:35 AM.

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        • #5
          It depends entirely on how 'online' this game is. If it's like D2, and most people will be playing online, then don't allow people to change masteries. If it's going to be primarily single player, with some disappointing, sort-of-working online like TQ had, then for goodness sakes let people change masteries more or less at will. There's no reason to punish single players like that. If the idea is to be online, then you have to have a unique character to fill a role, and some should be better than others without the infinite ability to tweak.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by mamba View Post
            Every single one ? I do not know of a single game where you can change your class / mastery at a later time.
            I thought this was funny...he asked a question that was in direct contradiction in what he is advocating for

            Anyways, I like respecs for skills...maybe even throw stats into the mix for GD...but not sure about masteries.

            I think there is a balance between giving the player options and making their choices meaningful and to me respecing masteries crosses that line.
            "I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic."

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            • #7
              I believe playing the game should be fun.

              I believe leveling up should be fun.

              I believe it should be soooo much fun, that I'd love to play multiple characters, just to try different classes/masteries/builds.

              If I'd want to be able to respec my class or masteries, because I'd absolutely NOT want to go through all that playing again - then I do NOT enjoy playing the game, then I do NOT enjoy leveling up my char.

              Because, in that case I'm only in for the "reward" of having a high level char with cool gear - but I'm not in for the game itself. Having to play the game actually is the catch. You have to do it to get that high-level char and cool gear, but I'd rather not do it, if I didn't have to.

              If that happens, something is wrong with the game.

              Maybe progress is to slow, leveling up takes too much time.
              Maybe the combat you have to do to level up is not enjoyable enough.
              Maybe the game is to repetitive or not diverse enough, so that playing the same levels again is boring.

              In that case you definitely need to fix what's wrong with the game, and make it so much fun, that having to play a new character is NOT unbearable.

              Allowing to respecc a class or mastery does not fix the real problem.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Scryer View Post
                Explain specifically what value is taken away without giving an analogy.
                I guess these quotes best express what I do not like about the concept

                Originally posted by yerkyerk View Post
                take away from the uniqueness of your character.
                It would take incentive away to start over with a new character.
                Originally posted by Renevent View Post
                I think there is a balance between giving the player options and making their choices meaningful and to me respecing masteries crosses that line.
                You take away accomplishment and diversity. Any character can be any other character just by spending some money. You take away my 'connection' to the character, it becomes some random stats (as in whatever I last spent money on) without any meaning.


                And I fully do agree with

                Originally posted by hooby View Post
                I believe playing the game should be fun.

                I believe leveling up should be fun.

                I believe it should be soooo much fun, that I'd love to play multiple characters, just to try different classes/masteries/builds.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't think there should be another incentive to start a new character, the incentive should be that it's fun to play a new character.

                  Your character will always be unique because you'll always decide what specific abilities you choose in each mastery.

                  Respecing masteries gives players options and choices, they are both just as meaningful as starting a new character.

                  Respecing a mastery would be a rare and unique event. Most players would only respec if they truly wanted to. Respecing masteries could be limited thus making it a unique event.

                  Respecing masteries gives players the incentive to experience a new mastery without being forced to level a new character.

                  I see what you're trying to get at, but I'm not seeing it work.
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                  • #10
                    I disagree with this thread entirely. I do not like this idea because if someone really hated a mastery that much, it means the mastery is no fun. If it's no fun, NO ONE will like it.

                    I believe playing the game should be fun.

                    I believe leveling up should be fun.

                    I believe it should be soooo much fun, that I'd love to play multiple characters, just to try different classes/masteries/builds.
                    This is the proof in the pudding, this is where the game should be heading, not for FREE SKILLS ANYTIME YOU WANT TO CHANGE. It has to have some limitations, sandbox games aren't fun.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scryer View Post
                      I don't think there should be another incentive to start a new character, the incentive should be that it's fun to play a new character.
                      then why do you need to spec out of a mastery to begin with ?

                      If I can have the fun of experiencing a different high level build by spending some money, why would I start a new char to do so ?

                      Respecing masteries gives players options and choices, they are both just as meaningful as starting a new character.
                      Having no requirements for gears also gives the chars options and choices that otherwise would not exist. Options for the sake of having them are not good.

                      Respecing masteries gives players the incentive to experience a new mastery without being forced to level a new character.
                      and this is exactly what is wrong with it in my book
                      So we just went from 'so you can fix a broken build' to 'so you can enjoy a different build without starting over'.

                      You take away (part of) the incentive of building a new char.

                      The only redeeming part of respeccing masteries is that there is a low limit for the number of times you are allowed to do it. Personally to me the right limit is exactly 0 times, your number is more like 1 or 2.
                      Last edited by mamba; 10-30-2010, 02:36 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ASYLUM101 View Post
                        I disagree with this thread entirely. I do not like this idea because if someone really hated a mastery that much, it means the mastery is no fun. If it's no fun, NO ONE will like it.



                        This is the proof in the pudding, this is where the game should be heading, not for FREE SKILLS ANYTIME YOU WANT TO CHANGE. It has to have some limitations, sandbox games aren't fun.
                        Maybe they don't like the mechanics of the mastery? Maybe they don't like the style of play even though they thought they would? All mastery mechanics are going to have to be learned, so why not give players options?
                        Rather then being forced to re-level?

                        Who said anything about free skills anytime you want? We're talking about putting limits on mastery respecs and making it hard to obtain.

                        Sandbox games aren't fun? That sounds like an opinion, we're dealing with a game mechanic here, we're talking about facts. Whether or not you like sandbox games has nothing to do with this thread.

                        I would also argue that mastery respecs do not change the genre of the game to "sandbox." The genre will still be action RPG, except, wow, you have options!

                        Whether someone respecs or not, it will not effect you.

                        Originally posted by mamba View Post
                        then why do you need to spec out of a mastery to begin with ?

                        If I can have the fun of experiencing a different high level build by spending some money, why would I start a new char to do so ?
                        You would start a new character because it's fun to level new characters. According to the argument that should be the reason.

                        Originally posted by mamba View Post
                        Having no requirements for gears also gives the chars options and choices that otherwise would not exist. Options for the sake of having them are not good.
                        Where is your proof that options for the sake of having them aren't good? Also, how does that pretain to mastery respec in the same way?


                        Originally posted by mamba View Post
                        So we just went from 'so you can fix a broken build' to 'so you can enjoy a different build without starting over'.

                        You take away (part of) the incentive of building a new char.

                        The only redeeming part of respeccing masteries is that there is a low limit for the number of times you are allowed to do it. Personally to me the right limit is exactly 0 times, your number is more like 1 or 2.
                        If mastery respecs are hard to obtain, or even if they are obtainable, how does that ruin anyone's gaming experience? A player could simply choose not to obtain a mastery respec. What's the reason for limiting a player's choices?

                        If you say it's for incentive, again, the incentive should only be that it's fun to level new characters, otherwise you're forcing the player in an arbitrary manner to stay the same mastery.
                        Last edited by Scryer; 10-30-2010, 02:58 AM.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Scryer View Post
                          Sandbox games aren't fun? That sounds like an opinion, we're dealing with a game mechanic here, we're talking about facts. Whether or not you like sandbox games has nothing to do with this thread.
                          The reverse is also true, anyone who finds sandbox games enjoyable is also basing it on opinion, not fact. In games you will have a hard time arguing facts, pretty much everything is opinion.

                          You would start a new character because it's fun to level new characters. According to the argument that should be the reason.
                          Agreed, and based on the same logic you would enjoy creating a new character, therefore not needing the option to respec the mastery

                          Where is your proof that options for the sake of having them aren't good? Also, how does that pretain to mastery respec in the same way?
                          What do you consider proof ? I gave you an example and the proof to me is the opinion of everyone else (but you) on this thread.

                          If mastery respecs are hard to obtain, or even if they are obtainable, how does that ruin anyone's gaming experience? A player could simply choose not to obtain a mastery respec. What's the reason for limiting a player's choices?
                          see above, more choice is not always better, that is why it is called game design, not game 'throw all choices in'

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                          • #14
                            I disagree with the idea. Boundaries need to be established in the game. Limiting respeccing to skills is one thing. After all, there are a slew of skills that are available which look good in theory, but actually play out quite badly. All ARPG"s are at fault here and hopefully Crate can strive to change that.

                            If there is a third party program available that can allow a respec of a mastery, so be it, that is the player's choice to go against the design decision. I believe when a player makes a choice, they then need to be prepared to ride the whole wave of their decision, both the good parts and the bad parts. That's just one part of the gameplay element. By allowing class respec, then the character loses its uniqueness, no longer is it a character, but instead a potential master of everything that can change itself at whim. It loses its role within the gameworld.

                            As an example, consider Oblivion. The characters could have some skills tagged as being dominant, while the rest were lesser skills. Yet, it was possible to level up all skills, and as such, the roleplaying element of the game was lost. Why should a wizard be able to jump into an arena and swing a mace with ease and more skill than the arena champion?

                            I bolded roleplaying for a reason. We have to remember that this is an Action RolePlaying Game. True, many D&D geeks can argue that ARPG's are really RPG-lite, but better to have some sort of roleplaying than none at all, which is what is at risk if class respeccing is brought in.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mamba View Post
                              The reverse is also true, anyone who finds sandbox games enjoyable is also basing it on opinion, not fact. In games you will have a hard time arguing facts, pretty much everything is opinion.
                              I disagree, a lot of what goes into games are based on facts and psychological facts. For example, a game generally not fun when you give the player all the power from the start. This would make the game too easy and boring in most cases when you're talking about an ARPG. That is indeed a hard fact about almost every ARPG. Lets say the player has access to every item in the game from the start. That is poor design, it's not facilitating any difficulty. I wouldn't really call it an opinion, it's simply bad design.

                              Originally posted by mamba View Post
                              Agreed, and based on the same logic you would enjoy creating a new character, therefore not needing the option to respec the mastery
                              Not at all my point. The option to respec masteries comes from play-style testing. With 5 masteries to try out, how will a player try any of the combinations and come to enjoy them the way they are expected to? Neither of us know that, so what will taking the option out of the game do? It will arbitrarily limit the player.

                              Originally posted by mamba View Post
                              What do you consider proof ? I gave you an example and the proof to me is the opinion of everyone else (but you) on this thread.
                              Just because I'm the only one defending the idea does not make it a flawed idea. I consider proof essentially where a game has been "bad" because you were allowed to change classes at high levels. The main reason you may not see many games that allow this seems more to be along the lines of traditional value. Traditional value alone is not the best way to develop a game. As long as the "old school" feel of it doesn't interfere with the actual game mechanics. How would a mastery respec do this? It's an option. How does that hurt a player specifically?

                              Originally posted by mamba View Post
                              see above, more choice is not always better, that is why it is called game design, not game 'throw all choices in'
                              It's not "throw all choices in" it's "give the player a chance to see what he likes without being forced to re-level." If you don't care about the option to respec masteries, why ruin the experience for those that want the option?

                              Originally posted by Josho View Post
                              I disagree with the idea. Boundaries need to be established in the game. Limiting respeccing to skills is one thing. After all, there are a slew of skills that are available which look good in theory, but actually play out quite badly. All ARPG"s are at fault here and hopefully Crate can strive to change that.
                              I agree that if Crate makes exceptional skills then this may never be a problem. However, I don't see how not having mastery respecs are a necessary boundary.

                              Originally posted by Josho View Post
                              If there is a third party program available that can allow a respec of a mastery, so be it, that is the player's choice to go against the design decision. I believe when a player makes a choice, they then need to be prepared to ride the whole wave of their decision, both the good parts and the bad parts. That's just one part of the gameplay element. By allowing class respec, then the character loses its uniqueness, no longer is it a character, but instead a potential master of everything that can change itself at whim. It loses its role within the gameworld.
                              First of all, your first paragraph disagrees with your second. You're saying that it's not okay to let players respec masteries, even though they may make bad decisions? That (seems to) imply 2 that te player will end up making bad choices and not be allowed to correct them unless he starts a new character.

                              I don't see how a character looses his uniqueness when he respecs masteries. Characters are unique based on the skills they choose more-so then the masteries they choose. The masteries are simply a means to an end. The role that the player has in any ARPG is the role they want to have, so having to option to change that role would actually help the game play. Also, no one here is arguing for the ability to change a mastery "at whim."

                              Originally posted by Josho View Post
                              As an example, consider Oblivion. The characters could have some skills tagged as being dominant, while the rest were lesser skills. Yet, it was possible to level up all skills, and as such, the roleplaying element of the game was lost. Why should a wizard be able to jump into an arena and swing a mace with ease and more skill than the arena champion?
                              I loved Oblivion, I think it's a wonderful game, it let you master everything if you wanted to. But that's absolutely not what I'm suggesting. Masteries can only be combined by 2, so there is no way to master everything, indeed it shouldn't even be possible. However, the option to change your mastery should be possible, because it would be an option to the dedicated player.

                              Originally posted by Josho View Post
                              I bolded roleplaying for a reason. We have to remember that this is an Action RolePlaying Game. True, many D&D geeks can argue that ARPG's are really RPG-lite, but better to have some sort of roleplaying than none at all, which is what is at risk if class respeccing is brought in.
                              There is no risk here. The role-playing is still facilitated by the player. Respecs would be a costly and difficult thing to attain. Notice, the premise of the game is that you select your masteries at level 2 after leveling up, so why should it be so hard to unlearn those masteries and re-learn a new one? The game world is that of magic, and as such almost anything is possible. The mastery respec option could be built right into the lore. I don't see it causing any problems to anyone. Masteries are also very loosely defined classes.
                              Last edited by Scryer; 10-30-2010, 08:07 AM. Reason: Seems to
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