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  • #16
    As much as I love TQ and IT, I have to agree that are quite a few completely throwaway skills that I never found a good use for.

    Skills I never found useful:

    Circle of Power (Spirit), Spirit Ward + Spirit Bane (Spirit), Energy Shield (Storm), Distortion Field (Dream), Stone Skin (Earth), Molten Rock (Earth), Soften Metal (Earth), Flame Surge + complimentary skills, all the poison and bleeding related skills past normal mode.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jiaco View Post
      All in all, just want to poke in and say, please no stoning and to the OP, be careful with your criticism if you are unsure, there are people here that have played the game to death. You will be called out on false claims.
      Yeah, yeah, I know - That old "you may not have or state an opinion on a game you haven't played for 100 hours at least" - kind of thing...

      I believe everyone has a right to his own opinion and a right to state it - even it possibly is totally unfounded (not to say that I think my opinion is totally unfounded - but yeah I surely spent less time in TQ than most people here).

      As I disclaimed during the first post, it's only my opinion. I don't claim that all I do write are scientific facts. If I say that in my opinion the game starts off to slow - then this is what i felt during playing. The game felt slow to me.

      If video comparisons and exact "pixels to meters" calculations actually do prove that TQ in fact is faster than most other arpgs, that doesn't change a thing. Even the fact that it actually IS faster, won't change the fact that it felt slow to me.

      I just wanted to stress the fact, that I am posting a personal opinion/impression here - not scientific truths.

      And as I stated before, I don't intent on convincing anybody that I'm right. So there's really no need to get your panties in a twist.

      Originally posted by yerkyerk View Post
      [...] it's mostly a case of seperating the good from the not so good, and TQ definetely belongs to the good in my list.
      Of course it is. (Both - seperating the good from the not so good, and TQ being a good game.) I can totally agree on that.

      I really wouldn't bother to sort my thoughts and write down posts like that on I game I really don't care about. Why would I?

      Also I didn't intend to say that "diablo was a better game than TQ" - I don't know... I even don't care which is the "better" game for me. Those "what's best" discussion don't ever lead anywhere anyways.
      At the moment TQ would be the better game for me. I'm still playing it, in the evenings after work. And I'm enjoying it. Diablo 2 is history by my book. I had lots of fun with it, but finally reached the point of oversaturation. I just can't see it any more.

      Originally posted by yerkyerk View Post
      I also think the item diversity in TQ was not as 'advanced' as in Diablo 2. In Diablo, a lot of uniques and pretty much all runewords offered special builds.
      Funny thing you'd say that. Actually I felt that runewords broke item diversity. There always was just that one single runeword that perfectly fit your build, and no random item could ever be as good as that. So while formerly you had a broad range of random items that were "best" for you, it then was down to one single runeword... The same one everybody else with the same classbuild wanted (or had already).

      Originally posted by yerkyerk View Post
      In TQ, it's mostly a plain, dull stat comparison.
      Also, in TQ slower weapons did more damage; but since it was too easy to reach the attack speed cap (and the base attack speed of a weapon was not linked to the max attack speed of the weapon), slow weapons like clubs and spears were usually the best.
      Hellgate:London actually managed to get weapon diversity up quite a notch. They had weapons that did fire dam or electricity dam for base damage, they had melee weapons that did splash damage, and the formula of "damage x speed = DPS and nothing else matters" was broken by monsters having non-percentual damage resistance values. So vs. enemies with high damage resistance a slow weapon with high base damage would do more DPS whilst agains enemies with many hit points but low damage resistance a fast weapon with lower base damage would be more effective.

      A shame that game failed on so many other grounds.

      Originally posted by yerkyerk View Post
      Anyway, it's good to have diverging opinions. Welcome to the site (again). This is a pretty laidback community, we won't stone you for not agreeing with the status quo .
      You sure about that?
      I'm getting an alarmingly high number of warnings to keep the divergence of my opintion down rather and don't risk pushing it to far... :P

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      • #18
        Originally posted by hooby View Post
        You sure about that?
        I'm getting an alarmingly high number of warnings to keep the divergence of my opintion down rather and don't risk pushing it to far... :P
        Absolutely. I have seen people apologizing for getting a bit too fired up in an argumentation. That is is not what you would expect on a forum right?^^

        Anyway regarding the useless skills: I don't think they are poorly designed, in fact I liked a lot of them and really wanted to play them. It was just the stats where really low and fixed. I think Torchlight scaled the skills by your stats. Don't really know how it worked but it was a very nice idea and I think all aRPGs should do that.
        That way you can also prevent imbalanced skills like the distortion wave which made you run through enemies in normal and epic if you just skilled it with it's Mod.
        "It may take centuries to rise but once the Ice starts moving even mountains will yield."
        - Armant, Prophet of the Northern Empire

        "Buying things enhances my gaming experience."

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        • #19
          Originally posted by hooby View Post
          Funny thing you'd say that. Actually I felt that runewords broke item diversity. There always was just that one single runeword that perfectly fit your build, and no random item could ever be as good as that. So while formerly you had a broad range of random items that were "best" for you, it then was down to one single runeword... The same one everybody else with the same classbuild wanted (or had already).
          While runewords were generally broken, they did allow for loads of builds.
          The summoning sorceress (runeword with revive charges), melee sorc (double lightning aura + passion ), Immortal Queen (sorceress with Immortal King set - not a runeword though), pretty much any class in bearform, wolfbarb, pyrotechnic necromancer (trang oul set - not a runeword either), whirlwind assassin, etc..
          I think each runeword (at least the 1.10 ones) gave access to at least one new build, but usually a lot more. Many uniques and a few sets gave access to interesting builds as well.

          While most of em weren't as effective as the cookiecutter builds, many of them were fun to play. And you could discover these builds for yourself. I've not really seen such a thing in TQ, where you just went with whatever equipment gave you the best stats.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Harlequin View Post
            Absolutely. I have seen people apologizing for getting a bit too fired up in an argumentation. That is is not what you would expect on a forum right?^^
            In my experience that's only a matter of forum-size. All smaller forums are like this, but once they reach a certain size, the atmosphere changes.

            I was Admin of one of the biggest german fan-sites for Hellgate:London back in the days before its release... and I struggled really hard, to establish a sort of "self-control", with no hard forum rules, and no army of mods overseeing every step and punishing everything that barely scratched any of the rules...

            The base idea was: "This is YOUR forum, so keep it in a shape you can enjoy."

            And it did work out quite well at first. I had to write a lot of PM's to new people exlaining how this forum worked - but once people found out, that there were no forum rules, and nobody cleaned up the mess (no locked threads, no deleted posts), and there was no "authority" to lean up against... trolling just stopped.

            But then release came around and we hit around 1000 unique visits a day, and the forum broke. There were too many new people coming in - all not knowing (and not caring about) how this forum did work - they all assumed it was like anywhere else, that "everything you don't get punished for is allowed" style of thinking... and so the experiement failed. Maybe it could have worked out, if there hadn't been such rapid growth...
            I already had gathered a handfull of supporters, explaining the forums idea to new people on their account. I never asked anyone to anything - but people started to take responsibility.

            Well, at least I did learn a lot during that experiment

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            • #21
              That's something I noticed as well. I really hope that this forum stays nice when the game gets popular.
              Anyway as long it is nice here, enjoy your stay and feel free to speak your mind.
              "It may take centuries to rise but once the Ice starts moving even mountains will yield."
              - Armant, Prophet of the Northern Empire

              "Buying things enhances my gaming experience."

              Comment


              • #22
                I actually didn't like how the best stats on items were the +skills... I feet like that really detracts from diversity. I don't have that much experience in D2 but it feels like the best way to get more powerful is to just equip items that give +skills. Furthermore, the skill system itself seems pretty basic, but then again it is an old game.

                Titan Quest also did this with the items but I feel like it was to a lesser extent. There are definitely a lot of items that I'd prefer over +skills like +%attackspeed, +%elementaldamage, +resists...

                I feel like items should be there not just to add to skills, but to complement the character in different ways, adding things that your skills may not.

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                • #23
                  This is where modding proves its worth. I played TQ years ago in its vanilla, unmodded state, and although I enjoyed the game, I have to agree with many of your points, the game did have its faults.

                  But I've just recently started playing it again, and this time, I've modded the daylights out of it. Anything I didn't like or felt was unbalanced, I've changed. And this time I'm having a blast. I'm enjoying the game so much more now than I did on my first playthrough.

                  So I say, just play with the modding tools and change the game to suit your playstyle. Cause modding games is not only fun, it's Godly Awesome! I just wish I'd been brave enough to try it years ago

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                  • #24
                    Nice post, although the only thing I really agree with you on is the slow start TQ has. In fact I think it's one of the reasons many gamers put it off initially. Those who invested the time saw how great and deep it got, but those who didn't or got bored left feeling the game was stale.

                    I don't think this will be an issue this time around though...the inclusion of blood, dismemberment, and gibbing will make the game right off the bat feel more visceral and hopefully more appealing.
                    "I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Renevent View Post
                      blood, dismemberment, and gibbing
                      And hopefully we get some equally gruesome sound effects to accompany these mechanics

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Azrael View Post
                        I actually didn't like how the best stats on items were the +skills... I feet like that really detracts from diversity.
                        That's true. I'd totally support removing +Skills from Items completely.

                        But that was not the point.
                        What i really meant to say was something different:
                        In Diablo, if you had a skill that gave you a bonus to attack speed, a +1 bonus to that skill, would push your attack speed as much (or even more) than an item with +attack speed would do.

                        That shows that the power of skills was much higher than the power of items.
                        If you had an Attack speed of +50%, possibly +35% came from skills, and +15% came from item bonuses.
                        (Example completely made up now... no real numbers)

                        I personally had the feeling, that in TQ the ratio was rather like: +40% coming from items, and +10 percent coming from skill ranks...

                        And I personally think, that the power of skills and items should be equal at least, or that skills should be stronger than items.

                        As you said, the items you use should complement your skills - not the other way round.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Azrael View Post
                          I actually didn't like how the best stats on items were the +skills... I feet like that really detracts from diversity. I don't have that much experience in D2 but it feels like the best way to get more powerful is to just equip items that give +skills. Furthermore, the skill system itself seems pretty basic, but then again it is an old game.

                          Titan Quest also did this with the items but I feel like it was to a lesser extent. There are definitely a lot of items that I'd prefer over +skills like +%attackspeed, +%elementaldamage, +resists...

                          I feel like items should be there not just to add to skills, but to complement the character in different ways, adding things that your skills may not.
                          Not exactly, resistance and other defensive stuff was ofcourse still important for all builds. If you choose non-spellcasters, +skills weren't usually the best to get. For spellcasters you'd also want to get a high cast speed frame. There was enough to look out for for all builds.

                          +Skills in TQ:IT were vastly more overpowered. In Diablo 2, you'd just get a bonus on the skills you were actively using (not for the passive synergies) in TQ you'd get the full deal. And TQ had 40 mostly useful skills, where Diablo 2 had 30 skills which were mostly useless. However, TQ capped of the +skills at 4, and every endgame build would have +4 or more skills anyway, which made +skills in TQ, well, not attractive.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by hooby View Post
                            That's true. I'd totally support removing +Skills from Items completely.
                            I hope they never ever do that...awful idea. Sure they can rebalance their effectiveness or whatever (personally I didn't think it was an issue to begin with) but taking them away would make the systems a bit boring.

                            It's awesome finding new items with +skills as they work to progress your skills even after maxing them out through leveling. This extends progression for characters even after the skill leveling part of it is over. A lot of times it's a tangible effect too for instance casting that additional wolf when you finally are able to get +4 skills.

                            These progressions make the leveling process more interesting, removing them would be detrimental to the game in my opinion.

                            I remember in HG:L originally when everyone found out that +skill items didn't actually improve already maxed out skills (no over skill)...people were rightfully disappointed.
                            "I've always felt that a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting points of view he can entertain simultaneously on the same topic."

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                            • #29
                              I'd actually support +to all skills being removed (or made extremely rare), as I cannot see how this can be balanced properly. However, I'd like to see extensive use of +to specific skills, or +to all fire skills, that kind of thing. I do think skills are crucial to the game and allowing the player to build them up beyond their regular state would be very interesting. Imagine TQ where you could get +15 to the summon wolves skill on your total equipment and run around with 8 wolves

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                              • #30
                                Personally, I'd like to see a cap on the + skills removed.

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