My Concern (Titan Quest Syndrome)

[Iceciro]

I just want to start this correctly by saying that it is incredibly awesome to have been linked here by my friends - this game is definitively something I will be purchasing as a donator (what an odd sentence) and am looking forward to with the giddiness of a child faced with a huge box with his name on it near x-mas, and it's just about the right size to be a game console box.

My concern isn't about the game itself being awesome, but about replayability. It basically comes down to what myself and my friends have dubbed "Titan Quest Syndrome" : a game that is great to play through the first time, decent the second, and the third you know where to go, what to do, what monsters will pop up where, and oh here's that skeleton pile that comes out of the ground.

Truly, it's a lack of procedurally generated content.

Striking a balance between the wonderful, lush overworld that is remarkably put together, and dungeon tilesets that randomize on each playthrough. It's something that D2 does that keeps people coming back, that prevents me from piling into Titan Quest every few days and murdering hordes of enemies.

It's somewhat exacerbated by the fact that 2/3rds of the game is a playthrough of the first 1/3rd, so by the time you've cleared a whole playthrough (an impressive chunk of time, of course!) and are ready to set your second character up and try a new mix of classes, and wham. Not just nostalgia, but an absolute mental understanding of what this dungeon is going to look like, what mobs are in it and where, and what they're going to do.

Are there any plans to do procedurally generated content for the dungeons, or anywhere? Not that the original TQ/TQIT wasn't awesome overall, but its re-playability suffers from that hangnail (and the difficulty settings, but there are mods for that ;-) and you state you're going to scale them up better this time, which is awesome of you.) for repeated playthroughs, and its what keeps me changing back to games like Diablo 2, Stone Soup, and Torchlight, even though as a game, I like TQ much better - its just a game I have played in the same way over and over. This isn't the difference between a donation and a non-donation, as I said, TQ was the superior game of the group from a first-play through standpoint due to skills, interaction, and sending monsters flying through the air. But it does have some effect on how much of a donation I feel willing to make, especially knowing that you guys will have DLC/expansion content later, too.

[Void(null)]

Borderlands also is a great example of Titan Quest Syndrome.

The game is beautiful, rich, deep and immerse... but nothing changes from the first play through other than perhaps character skills, and making your way through the same areas on a slightly higher difficulty looses something.

Diablo kept key areas hand crafted and randomly generated its dungeons, I always thought something similar for Titan Quest would have given that game as rabid a fan base as Diablo. Beautiful hand crafted exteriors, with randomized Interior/Dungeon tiles.

It would be really great to see Grim Dawn with some procedurally generated content, so that higher difficulty's felt like a progression of the game, rather than a rehash of the same old same old.

Titan Quest was awesome, that game should have been far more commercially successful than it was and I agree that more randomization would be a means of increasing any ARPG's staying power.

[deimos]

This seems to be about personal taste, for the most part. When it comes to terrain and main story, i agree with you on replayability; you know everything everywhere after a few runs and if that's what floats your boat, then the game is going to get old really fast unless it has randomized terrain as you mentioned.

TQ:IT, for me, however has stopped being just about running it through a long time ago. It changed from sightseeing to testing every possible build, when that was done it was time to get creative and make specialized builds. Which, of course, didn't always make it through... ;)

Nowadays it's about gear, i'm on a holy mission to collect everything there is in the game. No doubt it's 'Mission Impossible' in a reasonable amount of time, considering Grim Dawn and Diablo 3 are at the end of the tunnel. Also, having a friend to play with co-op spices things up a lot. Not to mention mods such as Uber, Underlord, XmaX etc. I haven't even touched those for the most part, yet.

But it sure keeps *me* occupied!

[deimos]

It would be really great to see Grim Dawn with some procedurally generated content, so that higher difficulty's felt like a progression of the game, rather than a rehash of the same old same old.

This could actually work, to have the higher difficulties spawn some random dungeons and environments in addition to "bonus" bosses like TQ had the Manticore and so on.

[Void(null)]

Its about striking a balance.

Too much procedurally generated content and a game feels... robotic, lacking any form of character or soul.

Too much hand crafting and the areas while stunning, suffer from being more familiar and predictable with each successive play-through, and with an ARPG where the standard is to play-through the same world content at least 3 times with each character then it can all get a bit samey.

Even after hundreds of hours playing Titan Quest, I can fire it up and have fun. But I know every Dungeon, every map, every monster spawn... yet if I fire up Diablo while the game is familiar its always going to be a little different each time I play it.

Like I said, Tristram was always the same, boss levels were always the same, but the path through the winding corridors to those landmarks still kept that sense of newness, and made slogging through the game on higher difficulties feel far less repetitive.

[jiaco]

TQ was as close to perfect as I have seen. The ultimate re-playability would come from an editor that could be used by many to make maps/proxies/quests in a way that did not require degrees in 3 diverse programs and the patience of a million saints.

My opinion is that TQ was better than TL for many reasons and the static world was one of them. But if all the great masteries mods for TQ also had new maps and all these things were mix and match to create even more different mods, well, I probably would have lost my job by now, but that would be the best game ever.

So for me, work on GD and get the company solid. Then continue making games and continue developing and RELEASING the toolset. Eventually, you as a company will have a rock solid, easy to craft with toolset and a modder-base that keeps your games kicking in between releases.

/END DREAM

[deimos]

You can see what a versatile toolset can achieve by looking at Morrowind and Oblivion. I'm not talking about the games, but what their fanbase is doing / have done for them.

Insane amount of plugins.

[Iceciro]

Part of me would be really satisfied/happy with a statement that they were going to do an infinite randomgen dungeon, or as DLC down the line. I honestly don't know if the engine supports random/procedural content though.

[medierra]

I've tried to hold off talking about randomized content until I could make a more definitive statement on what we'll include. However, I see this is a hot topic that won't die down.

I can't tell you that we'll have randomized dungeons but... we are working on it. Whether or not that makes it into the initial release, we are also designing the above ground world in such a way that there will be much more variety in content between each play-through than there was in TQ. We actually built tools that would allow us to randomize certain above ground elements in TQ but they came about too late in the project for us to really utilize them. The types of things you can expect to see are more variation in the appearance of enemy camps, heroes, loot, and quests.

Other things are in the works. Whether we will ship with them or not, I just don't know yet but they will make their way in eventually.

[Scryer]

Randomization is a sort of important topic, it does help a game's ability to hold interest, a lot, and actually, not having much randomization (at least on initial release) would make the idea for even greater loot-table distribution much more desirable. Obviously this is off the thread's topic. I just wanted to point it out.

So, I'm glade to see this being done though, at least to an extent. ^_^

[AXidenT]

Randomised dungeons and levels etc... are nice for certain areas, but without a doubt, a game which goes over the top has a much higher chance of becoming pretty average. I personally like the idea of keeping the pre-made stuff blow you away enough that you won't mind looking at it repeatedly, but have the inbetween bits randomised. :)

[Void(null)]

You can see what a versatile toolset can achieve by looking at Morrowind and Oblivion. I'm not talking about the games, but what their fanbase is doing / have done for them.

Insane amount of plugins.

The problem is that Morrowind & Oblivion were not ARPG's.

Oblivion and Morrowind have a world that grows with you, you play the game from start to finish and immerse yourself in the wealth of content. You do not get to level 20 and then the game goes "Ok, back to the beginning and do all the quests a 2nd/3rd time."

Oblivion uses procedurally generated content in the form of the Oblivion Gates and both games have a leveled list to randomize creatures.

Daggerfall (The game before Morrowind) allowed you to explore all of Tamriel and was entirely procedurally generated and is considered by many fans to be the greatest of the Elder Scrolls series.

The Toolset for Morrowind/Oblivion/Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights (Even Civilization IV) are shining examples of what a modding community can do when properly supported by the developers. User made content can be vital to a games longevity, but that does not mean that a Developer cannot also build their games in a way that lends itself to greater replay value, especially if they are using a design model that will force you to go through the same content multiple times on the same character.

Torchlight is a great example of an ARPG that breaks this mold, yet has the reverse problem. You pick your difficulty, pick if you want to play hardcore or not and then have at it. The game has its main plot dungeon and a 1000 level completely randomly generated dungeon.

Torchlight lacks soul in its level design... but you can play through all 1000 of those levels on the same character without feeling like you know the next map intimately.

Torchlight goes too far one way and suffers for it, Titan Quest & Borderlands went too far the other, and equally suffered.

Call me spoiled, but I want to see a great base game that I can play through time and time again without enough love and care taken into the level design that it blows me away each time I see it, with enough randomization of dungeons that I dont feel its the same old same old on the 2nd/3rd play-through with a character AND I want great modding tools and a huge, active modding community that will continue to add to the game or even make entire new worlds of their own for me to explore.


I've tried to hold off talking about randomized content until I could make a more definitive statement on what we'll include. However, I see this is a hot topic that won't die down.

I can't tell you that we'll have randomized dungeons but... we are working on it. Whether or not that makes it into the initial release, we are also designing the above ground world in such a way that there will be much more variety in content between each play-through than there was in TQ. We actually built tools that would allow us to randomize certain above ground elements in TQ but they came about too late in the project for us to really utilize them. The types of things you can expect to see are more variation in the appearance of enemy camps, heroes, loot, and quests.

Other things are in the works. Whether we will ship with them or not, I just don't know yet but they will make their way in eventually.

Good to know you guys are keeping it in mind. If there are not enough zots to get it working in a way you like, then there are simply not enough zots.

While procedurally generated content can save a great deal of development time (by letting the engine do the work for you) I know it can also be a resource sink if you are only adding it for a little spice rather than the meat of the game.

If it makes it in great! If it doesn't, I know you guys will build some absolutely stunning hand crafted areas. But it is nice to know you guys are keeping it in mind.

[Renevent]

Personally I think random levels are way overrated. Sure, Torchlight has random levels, but they all feel like the same generic level over and over without any impressive or awe inspiring scenery. I think TQ's world/level were 10X more interesting.

With that said, I think the approach Diablo 3 is taking sounds really nice. Boss areas, towns, over world, and other unique areas are all hand crafted...but the dungeons will be randomized as well. I think that's a really great approach which not only allows for beautiful hand crafted areas, but also the re playability of random content.

[deimos]

The problem is that Morrowind & Oblivion were not ARPG's.

Why is it a problem? I don't see the importance of game genre when it comes to content created with a proper toolset. Of course, if you refer to the amount of stuff available for modding in the first place, then i understand. :) Those first-person RPG's do have a wider range of objects, mechanics and quite a lot larger world to modify and thus a larger amount of plugins available.

Although, that doesn't mean wonders couldn't be achieved with any aRPG given proper tools in skilled hands. ;)

[Llama8]

I'm in two minds over the static/randomised debate, on the one hand I like large hand-made areas to explore (not the way it was done in TQ, that forced you to go in a single direction, you couldn't just take a break from the main quest & go over-that-a-way to see what's over the next hill), but after a few play throughs of exploring, you know where everything is & always where to go. IMO, TQ could have been improved by having some large areas to explore, unconnected with the main quest (and no, the non-quest dungeons don't count).

[Void(null)]

Why is it a problem? I don't see the importance of game genre when it comes to content created with a proper toolset.

Because its like comparing Counterstrike with Peggle. Entirely different games with very different needs.

The emphasis on an ARPG is placed upon Loot/Level.

The emphasis in an open world RPG is upon exploration and immersion.

Titan Quest has very different needs when compared to Oblivion, and Oblivion has very different needs when compared to Final Fantasy.

This even applies to the way it lends itself to modding.

Look at Dragon Age and its Modding community when compared to Neverwinter Nights. Both by the same company, both slimier types of games but the emphasis is placed in different places.

Neverwinter Nights was about episodic content, which lent itself to modders building their own modules and telling their own story's, even even created entire new worlds.

Dragon Age places its focus upon the characters and the story, so it lends itself to a modding community that is more interested in tweaking the existing content.

People looking for an ARPG are not necessarily going to it to get their exploration fix. Other styles of games are a far better medium for this. People playing ARPG's generally want to kill ever mother fucker in the room in the coolest fashion possible, get neat loot and level up. The tiles that they do this in need to be varied enough so that they do not become monotonous, and provide a sense of progression (The landscape is changing, I must be moving along in the game.)

While a beautiful water fall will distract the player for a moment and think "That's pretty, this engine is truly beautiful" the thought immediately following is "Oooh! More dudes for me to kill! Perhaps some neat loot will drop!"

A game like Oblivion however, the player may have spent several hours looking for that same waterfall, traversing the countryside, it could even be the focal point of a quest "Find the lost shrine to this god out in the wilderness" and the location is the players reward.

A healthy and creative modding community can help add content and shape the world, but they are not going to turn Counterstrike into Peggle. (Except in very, very rare occasions when a particularly gifted modder will essentially rewrite the entire engine. Which is not something you can count on.)

[deimos]

Because its like comparing Counterstrike with Peggle. Entirely different games with very different needs.

But i didn't originally compare these games, did i? ;) I stated the same you did in your previous post:

The Toolset for Morrowind/Oblivion/Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights (Even Civilization IV) are shining examples of what a modding community can do when properly supported by the developers.

It is (was...) about a proper toolset and what can be achieved with it, no matter what the game is.

Sorry for derailing the topic at hand.

[Void(null)]

I think the entire point of my previous post was missed, lets do a TL;DR version.

"Good modding tools and a gifted modding community can do a lot, but certain styles of games lend themselves best to specific focuses in gameplay."

[deimos]

I think the entire point of my previous post was missed, lets do a TL;DR version.

"Good modding tools and a gifted modding community can do a lot, but certain styles of games lend themselves best to specific focuses in gameplay."

The point wasn't lost (i think, i'm not the brightest tool in the shed), just the relation to what i said in the first place was. ;) Nothing personal, of course. But you summed it nicely above.

[Void(null)]

Have you seen what the Dawn of War Community has done without any formal modding tools? (Just as point that good modding tools do not automatically make a good modding community.)

The Firestorm Over Kronus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neXHcn0lV9A) mod is perhaps one of the single most in-depth and detailed mods I have ever seen. It essentially rewrites the entire game, changing damn near every mechanic, adding entirely new models and textures, new armies, new VFX and turns Dawn of War into something closer to tabletop.

The list of changes they have made without a toolset is just staggering.

The mod became such an intricate part of DoW that when Relic turned its back on the modding community stated they would not be supporting modding in DoW2, The FoK team stated they would not be moving to work on a DoW2 version of the mod and DoW2 promptly lost a large portion of its fanbase.

There is nothing added in DoW2 that FoK does not do better, and this is a free mod created by unpaid fans in their spare time.

In-fact FoK allows for more armies, more detailed game-play, more troops on the screen and under the player control and substantially better multiplayer.

FoK is also one of the reasions I dont play Soulstorm. I have Soulstorm, but do not play it as I am waiting for it to be incorporated into FoK, because playing without FoK is like going backwards.

If modders have the will, there will always be a way.

[Renevent]

FoK is great but DoW2 is way better and more professional...you gotta be kidding me.

[Void(null)]

FoK is great but DoW2 is way better and more professional...you gotta be kidding me.

Orks should come in swarms, not groups of 4, that alone made FoK more enjoyable for me.

The Campaign mode for DoW2 is brilliant, hats off for that, very much enjoyed playing it with a friend but the Multiplayer makes up the longevity of an RTS and FoK beats DoW2 in this department, hands down and tied behind its back.

I beat the Campaign mode of DoW2, tried a few MP matches, got bored and promptly uninstalled it, never to play it again.

An RTS placing its focus on a Co-Op Campaign is a great example of trying to turn Counterstrike into Peggle, people looking for fast paced competitive play against other players are not necessarily interested in casually bouncing balls into pegs at that exact moment in time.

It may be a neat distraction but its not where the meat should have been.

Starcraft is the Korean national sport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft_professional_competition) for a reason.

[Renevent]

That's your opinion, I happen to really like DOW2...much more than the first. I also really love The Last Stand mode they added for free...which in my opinion is a lot more fun than competitive MP. Really looking forward to the expansions as well.

And I really don't care about Korea hehe...they also like crappy grind fest MMO's :p

[Iceciro]

Not to hop in on Void(Null)'s point here, but yeah, DoW2 sucks in comparison to Firestorm over Kronus. You can disagree with me, but if you do that just means you are WRONG. DoW2 is very pretty, but the multiplayer game lacks punch of any kind, and the fact that the two swarm armies (nids/orcs) lack any actual ability to truly swarm is pathetic. It does a terrible job of following the tabletop ruleset or theme.

Enough of the thread sidetrack for that though.

While a modding community can do amazing things with a proper toolset, or even a community toolset, there's a large portion of the playerbase involved with a commercial title that never will - especially if Grim Dawn ever gets a retail box. To the players that don't seek out modding, the core title and what's in it is very important.

[Void(null)]

That's your opinion, I happen to really like DOW2...much more than the first. I also really love The Last Stand mode they added for free...which in my opinion is a lot more fun than competitive MP.

And I really don't care about Korea hehe...they also like crappy grind fest MMO's :p

Me having my opinion does not invalidate yours, nor does you having your opinion invalidate mine. I would hope in this day and age we can both have differing opinions.

As for Korea:

They are the worlds leading market in competitive games, and are the first country to legally treat game currency as real money. (http://www.massively.com/2010/01/13/korea-rules-that-virtual-currencies-can-be-exchanged-for-real-mo/)

Disliking their MMO's does not invalidate the importance of Korea. China & Korea make up the majority of WoW's subscribers,Korea is also responsible for the survival of Hellgate: London, and when it comes to RTS games Korea is a very important market. They take their RTS games very, very seriously, bringing hardcore to new level.

Damn it, now I want to play some FoK.

Edit: Totally agreed, waaaay to much off-topic and sidetracking. back on point!

[Renevent]

Me having my opinion does not invalidate yours, nor does you having your opinion invalidate mine. I would hope in this day and age we can both have differing opinions.

As for Korea:

They are the worlds leading market in competitive games, and are the first country to legally treat game currency as real money. (http://www.massively.com/2010/01/13/korea-rules-that-virtual-currencies-can-be-exchanged-for-real-mo/)

Disliking their MMO's does not invalidate the importance of Korea. China & Korea make up the majority of WoW's subscribers,Korea is also responsible for the survival of Hellgate: London, and when it comes to RTS games Korea is a very important market. They take their RTS games very, very seriously, bringing hardcore to new level.

Edit: Totally agreed, waaaay to much off-topic and sidetracking. back on point!

That's exactly what I was saying, you have yours, and here's mine :D Though obviously Iceciro doesn't quite grasp that concept. Lots of people I know prefer DoW2 over the first, including FoK...maybe because we also enjoy a lot of ARPG's.

And I didn't say Korea isn't important...I just don't care about anything that goes on there. Their MMO's do not appeal to me what-so-ever. Most stuff that comes from that region stinks as far as gaming goes...and I'd be happy not to see it bleed over here. Aside from the crazy game mechanics in those games, the art style is just hideous in most of them.

Anyways, considering Grim Dawn is neither a MMO or RTS...much more not a Korean one...we can safely say absolutely none of this matters.

[Llama8]

The Firestorm Over Kronus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neXHcn0lV9A)

**** me! That's how to make a vid! Where's my DoW:DC disk?

[ASYLUM101]

I thought the original DoW was better than DoW2. Like others said, the mp really sucks, although I enjoyed the campaign(which only has one playthrough really.), and the last stand(which gets kinda boring after a while.). The original was much more entertaining for me. I liked how it was all set up and the whole new concept of not being able to make my base is stupid.

[Renevent]

Well, I thought repeating the process of building a base over and over and over again every single mission was tedious. You end up pretty much doing the same and pumping out the same units each time.

Not that I disliked DoW at all...one of my favorite RTS games of all time. I just think Relic got it right with it focus on action instead of base management.

And can't wait to see what they do with Space Marine...that game looks sexy!

[Shattered.likeness]

Sorry to get back on topic, but my version of "Titan Quest Syndrome" was a little different. I've tried many other games out trying fill the void of not playing Titan Quest, and can't find any. Every game I've played always has a few "features" that are just not quite implemented correctly, as they were in TQ:IT. So, after quitting for a few months, I'd always end up right back to playing TQ:IT again, because no game for me has ever cam close enough to being good enough to replace it, or pull me away from it. The only exception to this is going back and replaying some of the better RPG's released on the PS2.

[Ansive]

Hellgate London is a good example how even randomization can get boring if the game does not have enough material to randomize. The levels felt and looked the same. The game had like less than 10 tilesets...

Still, it might come back to the west in a free-to-play model this year. Should be fun.

[Void(null)]

Hellgate: London's randomization was really, really, really bad. As were the tileset designs.

I had fun with HGL, and I am also looking forward to them bringing it back... but my god, the levels for that game were just soooooooo bad.

But I think that says more about the poor design of HGL than the merits and flaws of procedurally generated content.

To be sure, badly done random generation will destroy a game... its certainly not the mythic easy path to solve all a games problems.

HGL's random levels are like Borderlands random weapons... supposedly near endless, but in reality you only have a handful of actual pieces to work with.

[GermanZombie]

I would like some sort of randomization option maybe just have some massive high level dungeon or something. Something I can just go in and survive trying to get more and more loot. I didn't mind the static enviorments of TQ but I did want some good random dungeon crawling in there as well.

[eisprinzessin]

A static world does fine for me. But if chests, traps and enemies/bosses were not always on the same spot, then this would add greatly to the replay value. Some squads could wander around and make your life difficult.

[Ansive]

Ah good point. I think slightly random monster population is more important than slightly different level layout. Random boss mobs are also great (TQ had than, but downplayed their importance).

Then again Diablo 2 comes to mind... I remember entering and exiting the game so I don't get Flesh Spawners or Worms as I'd get drowned in minions...

That reminds me... the 1.13 realm beta is live.

[shawnmck]

I personally feel that randomization is over-rated.
In theory it sounds good, but in practice it has it's own disadvantages associated with it. Take Diablo 2, it had randomized areas, but they all felt the same anyway. Everything was cookie-cutter in design and then just re-arranged in a different order to give people the false sense of being different, but it was still just as linear as any other game like it (but with lacking in variety in overal design because you had the same tree, rock, building, etc repeated over & over again to fill space). Hellgate: London is the extreme where this is concerned, as every level looked pretty much like all the rest.
You may gain some randomness with layout, but you also lose a lot with the repetitive design.
Yes, TQ had static level design, but look how fantastic it all looked. There wasn't the exact same tree repeated hundreds of times, or a sorry excuse of a wall that served as a road block to mark the boundaries of a map. It may have been static, but it looked soo nice and beautiful.
I will take an awesome looking static designed world over a random cooki-cutter generated one that doesn't look as appealing any day of the week.

But if the Developers can incorporate a little of both then that is fine too.

[andreyy]

That's why most people opt for a 50/50 solution, Shawnmck. As I once said, the landscaping work is the thing I love the most in TQ.

And why randomly generated land in D2 wasn't all that amazing? Because it was, basically, a flat area with points - creatures. Nothing happened, just land, units, boxes/chests/etc.

I suggested something for that, probably tiresome to make, but... well. If it's randomly generated, it can also have randomly generated encounters. For example - guard patrols fighting creatures. A caravan fending off monster attacks. A trade outpost hidden somewhere. Traps and ambushes - imagine that in TQ, you're going down the road, in a canyon and then FUCK! Bands of satyrs running down at you from both sides!

The general idea is to make the world more lively.

[medierra]

I think any above-ground randomization approach we take will be a hybrid system. We probably can't and I don't think want to have completely randomized above-ground. Custom crafted beautiful outdoor environments are something that I think people have come to expect from us. We have some ideas for adding more randomization to the outdoor environments without sacrificing that quality though. At the very least, even if we cannot randomize the terrain or layout at all, I think we can vary the location of quest objectives, monster camps, chests, and such, much more than we did on TQ. That way even if you recognize the terrain, you still have to explore the areas to find the points of interest. We may be able to go beyond this but we won't know for sure until we get further along in development.

I think there is a good chance we'll be able to add more significant randomization to undergrounds. This isn't implemented yet though, so I can't promise it will happen but it is something we're working on.

[k4llu5]

This sounds like probably the best option. It still allows you to have elaborate levels that are interesting but don't feel like narrow one way streets. I wish TQ had a bit more of this, as having to explore for each quest item thats in different locations helps break up the monotony, especially when it comes to multi-part quests such as having to find several broken parts of a valuable object. This way you can never assume that there won't be anything to find in that corner thats out of the way. Its memorable when you think "ah theres probably nothing over here, then stumble upon a chest and out pops a unique item (only to have it roll down the hill and over the cliff no doubt). Just kidding bout that part.

Also having a small pool of several types of baddies that can make an appearance in any given area sounds good too. Or possibly have a sequence of special events that can trigger at any given moment in certain zones. This will give a better sense of uncertainty as you don't know if something will happen. Such things could be an earhquake where the ground shakes and you have trouble controlling your toon, or a powerful sub-boss appeears with some minions out of nowhere, or perhaps a landslide that blocks of a certain path and you are forced to go the other way. This could be an easier path or harder one. The possibilities are endless.

[shawnmck]

How about having multiple paths to the same goal ?
Having paths that branch out & then lead to the eventual goal (boss monster, end of level, etc) would add replay because you can make the different branching paths contain their own respective unique designs, monsters, mini-bosses, whatever, but still be pretty much static.

Say for example one route led accross a rocky mountain top, while the other led through a cave, ravine.
Or one could lead through a forest, while the other path led through a swamp.

Players would then be able to choose a path, & take the other the next time they played.....or if they wanted to, back-track to where the paths branched off & try the other.

Just a suggestion.

[Llama8]

Yeah, multiple paths would be great IMO, otherwise what's the point of having a beautiful 3d environment if there's only ever one direction to go in?

[Ansive]

As far as I know most people hate the Kurast Jungle with its multiple paths in diablo 2.

Maybe optional places to go. But backtraking to check the other path isn't fun.

[Iggy]

For the persistent world vs random world, i'll have to go for some more random.

TQ world is gorgeous, and is quite a trip the first time through. Maybe the second. But it losses its appeal real quick after that.

Here's the difference beetwen a friend of mine and me. He plays games a first time around, have a blast, then jump to another one. I try different games to find the one i really love, then play the s#%& out of it; because it offers depth and replayability. And in the end, i played D2 a LOT more than i'll ever play TQ. Even if the dual mastery system is quite cool.

Both are valid approach, and i'm not to say GrimDawn should favor one over the other one. But it all depends on what their goal is. If they want people to play their game again and again, then i think part of the world being randomized, while key points are consistants would help replayability.

[Jimbot]

Personally, I dislike randomly generated content. I find it to be the quick way to do things and the game suffers for it. Randomized areas have no personality or heart put into them; just a random, boring layout that you don't pay any attention to whatsoever. Titan Quest had a sense of place, you ran through the entire game and it felt like you were moving over distances between the quest and shop HUBs, in Diablo 2 it felt like you were going through several boxes to get to somewhere and there was no sense of coherent direction or distance. Save for a few spots, the Diablo 2 areas are largely forgettable whereas the Titan Quest areas are quite memorable due to their scale and complexity.

The only way I can see randomly generated content working is if it were done on enemy placement. Different types of enemies and set in different areas each time you run through the level.

[Void(null)]

I agree wholeheartedly Jimbot,

This is why I am a fan of randomly generated dungeons, but not randomly generated worlds.

Random Dungeons do not really suffer from a lack of cohesion, and its fairly easy for the tiles and randomization script to be designed in a way to create a sense of flow. No one really cares if two corridors look near identical, as long as the dungeon progresses in some fashion that makes sense.

Procedural world generation on the other hand, often suffers greatly for all the reasons you mentioned above.

There is too much distance to travel and too much variation needed in the landscape for random generation to maintain any form of soul.

Random quest locations and creature spawns can work really well, but exterior world spaces really do benefit from handcrafting, but I don't think Dungeons really suffer because of Random Generation.

[medierra]

How about having multiple paths to the same goal ?


In a sense, we will be doing this but not quite as you described. Someone immediately brought up one of my least favorite levels in a video game - the jungles of ActIII in D2. I think having a lot of long, linear paths that join together can be a source of ultimate confusion for players. If you take a wrong turn, you generally end up traveling it for a long ways before you join up with ground you've already covered and realize you just spent 10mins going the wrong way. Then you potentially have to backtrack through several minutes of empty terrain where you've already killed everything.

However, we are planning to make levels less linear by designing them more as a series of boxes instead of linear paths. When I say "box" I mean that they will be more voluminous areas, not that they will be actual squares. So you'll enter these "boxes" and then begin exploring a more open area looking for the entrance to the next box area.

I am doubtful that we will actually be able to randomize the exits of most outdoor levels since our goal is to create levels that fit together to represent areas on a world-map. However, there are times when you will be traveling from one region to another through undergrounds or "rift gates". We may be able to randomize where these entrances appear in the levels. We haven't tested this yet though.

[Renevent]

However, we are planning to make levels less linear by designing them more as a series of boxes instead of linear paths. When I say "box" I mean that they will be more voluminous areas, not that they will be actual squares. So you'll enter these "boxes" and then begin exploring a more open area looking for the entrance to the next box area.


Sounds like the game Darksun from the good ole' DOS days.

[Jimbot]

In a sense, we will be doing this but not quite as you described. Someone immediately brought up one of my least favorite levels in a video game - the jungles of ActIII in D2. I think having a lot of long, linear paths that join together can be a source of ultimate confusion for players. If you take a wrong turn, you generally end up traveling it for a long ways before you join up with ground you've already covered and realize you just spent 10mins going the wrong way. Then you potentially have to backtrack through several minutes of empty terrain where you've already killed everything.

However, we are planning to make levels less linear by designing them more as a series of boxes instead of linear paths. When I say "box" I mean that they will be more voluminous areas, not that they will be actual squares. So you'll enter these "boxes" and then begin exploring a more open area looking for the entrance to the next box area.

I am doubtful that we will actually be able to randomize the exits of most outdoor levels since our goal is to create levels that fit together to represent areas on a world-map. However, there are times when you will be traveling from one region to another through undergrounds or "rift gates". We may be able to randomize where these entrances appear in the levels. We haven't tested this yet though.

I find that people don't mind running through that empty space if the reward is worth the exploration. Having a big, fat treasure trove at the end of the tunnel is always worth the uneventful return trip. Sometimes it's worth manually putting specific items/weapons in a treasure chest that's off the beaten path, so you make sure the trip was worth it instead of the player being at the mercy of a randomized loot generator. No one likes to travel through the bogswamp of legion only to find the "Crappy Sword of Poop" in a gold laced, majestic treasure chest because the loot generator happened to land on that one.

[shawnmck]

I really hated the jungle of Kurast in Diablo 2 as well. But the multiple paths in that area was frustrating because you had to back-track through all of them in order to find everything you needed. It wasn't really a clear cut choice between two distict paths. But I get your point, & could imagine how it might aggravate some players. I was actually thinking about Gears of War, but bringing up Kurast of D2 sent shivers through my body (& not in a good way) :cry:
I just want to help out in any way I possibly can, and I know that you don't really need the help & will make a fantastic game regardless.

[andreyy]

Why my suggestion for randomly generated encounters got thoroughly ignored every single time, you could at least say it sucks D:

[Rhis]

Why my suggestion for randomly generated encounters got thoroughly ignored every single time, you could at least say it sucks D:

Nothing is being ignored; we are reading everything. There isn't enough time in the day to reply to it all and actually make progress on the game, unfortunately.

[medierra]

Spawns where different groups are fighting one another is already in-game. We may be able to implement some more interesting types of encounters with a scripting system we're testing.

Less qq more pew pew as Rhis would say.

[andreyy]

I weren't, actually, complaining about the staff, it's just that nobody even discussed with it. And yeah, I'll try to 'pew pew' more ;)

[k4llu5]

"Crappy Sword of Poop"

lol, that made my day, thanks.