Town Portals, the Mini-Stop, Health Orbs, and More.

[Scryer]

What do Town portals do?

They allow a break in the action by giving a player a free-ride to town, most often when they are in danger. Is this necessary? Why shouldn't the player feel like they are in danger? What is wrong with danger?

I don't believe that anything is wrong with danger, I think that danger is fine to have in a game. However, how dangerous a game is, it is not dependent on the player to create this sense, the player will always try to stay out of danger. Town portals allow the player to retreat to a safe haven, without any consequences. Whether it's to simply attack and retreat, or retreat when the going gets too tough.

This is counter-intuitive to an Action game - you should not always have to return to town just to survive an attack. So there are certain things that need to be addressed - how can we change the game-play mechanics to allow the developer to enhance the Action experience of the game without creating unnecessary breaks?

Here's what I suggest, for the better or the worse.

- Mini - Stops, while playing through the game, these stops allow access to your Stash and Shared Stash in game (For a small price of iron), they also have a vendor in which to sell Items you want to sell. These stops could be lone-travelers that need rescued, once rescued they give you access to these options. They could also be adventurer's looking for "some new items / raw materials."

- Health Orbs - Yes Health orbs, whether or not you agree with them, they are the future, they allow the developer to create unique encounters. They give the player interesting ways of gaining health, and Potions no longer need to be spammed. Potion spamming is 1 game mechanic, if you limit what a player can use, and provide a new mechanic like health orbs, the player has 2 different mechanics.
Health Potions should be rare and only drop from enemies, they should have a cooldown on them, this allows the player to make choices. Health orbs allow the developer to make encounters that are different and fun. The player has the choice of using an orb now or later - I.E. a long timer before they disappear if ever. Health orbs could be used to also strengthen the character temporarily. Health potions are not meant to be removed from the game, just minimized in use.

- To remove town portals altogether, if the player could hire a mercenary with his / her own inventory, with separate inventory spaces specifically stating what each space will do - one are of the inventory will be "Hold Only" and another area will be "Sell Only" thus a player could send his mercenary to town to sell excess items that the player could not carry.

- Dropping buff scrolls, or buff potions that aid in battle (give the player temporary buffs) is another way to keep town portals out of your game, these items will make the player stronger and withstand more damage or deal more damage.

- Simply making sure that it is impossible for the player to collect enough gear to sell / deposit into their stash will also help towards this end as well.

- "Way points" would allow the player in the field to return to a home-point city without the need for a town portal.

- Check points where your character will spawn if and when he / she dies.

- At the very least town portals should be limited by 2 functions, a long 20 minute coold down, or by not allowing other players to enter each other's portals to town.

Read more about my ideas on Trash drops here.

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73

[Renevent]

This was from another thread, but like there, I gotta disagree with it entirely here too.

I think if balance/danger is a concern making the portal interruptable...or even un-castable in combat might be a good idea...but taking it out completely is a really bad idea.

As far as reducing the break up of combat...maybe add things like roving merchants or whatever to reduce trips to town is cool...but again...removing the portal is a no-no.

I don't think it makes any sense to remove this feature what-so-ever.

[Scryer]

This was from another thread, but like there, I gotta disagree with it entirely here too.

I think if balance/danger is a concern making the portal interruptable...or even un-castable in combat might be a good idea...but taking it out completely is a really bad idea.

As far as reducing the break up of combat...maybe add things like roving merchants or whatever to reduce trips to town is cool...but again...removing the portal is a no-no.

I don't think it makes any sense to remove this feature what-so-ever.

I understand you disagree with removing town portals, but you have not given me any solid reason not to, all of my suggestions help to remove them from the genre. However what reasonable idea can you provide to me that town portals are required or even necessary to play an ARPG? I think because you always see them in ARPG's, however even that is not a satisfactory reply.

Town Portals do nothing to further the game, at least not that I can see, the town is where you do business, so fighting to get to the next town should be a fun and exhilarating process, not something that you skip over simply because you have a way to instantly obtain that goal.

So what can be said about the usefulness of town-portals if they are a merely a stick in the side of the developer to come up with more interesting and fun mechanics?

[Renevent]

Because as a player, I enjoy the fact I can visit town easily, and I see absolutely no reason at all to remove this what-so-ever. There are many cases I needed to pop into town quickly, ranging from finding an item I wanted to store quick, picking up some items I forgot to last visit, in MP games meeting someone in town to chat/trade, if the phone rang (or whatever) and I needed to step away I would hit town, and a host of other reasons. And by the way, I have NEVER used to town portal to cheat death or whatever...to be perfectly honest I don't think that is even that much of a concern.

So basically, I see absolutely no benefit to me as a player removing it, and only negatives. In my eyes that is perfectly valid reasoning to oppose your suggestion.

I'm just a player, though, exactly like you. Maybe medierra thinks this idea is fantastic...maybe not. I just wanted to make sure my voice was heard too if he was to consider it...and know that at least one person would really hate to see that feature go.

[ASYLUM101]

So what can be said about the usefulness of town-portals if they are a merely a stick in the side of the developer to come up with more interesting and fun mechanics?

Um well, potions don't rain from the heavens, so it's a pretty vital component. D3 wouldn't have removed portals if it weren't for the fact that they also removed potions. Without portals, GD, TQ would be pretty hard with no potions. If you have to run god knows how far to buy a portal cause you can't find a monster to drop one, you're screwed. Health orbs is a ridiculous idea. This isn't a button masher, it's an ARPG. It's a mouse masher. :P

And like rev said, when you host a game, or you're running a challenge like hardcore mode, you want to sit in a safe place, not in the middle of a forest that you just cleared, where there could be one monster you haven't spotted. Pausing the game sometimes isn't possible. Pretty sure you can't pause TL or D2. Definitely can't pause when you're playing online, so that's not an option. Portalling back to town is really the only option.

[Scryer]

I just don't believe that it is the only option, I think there are plenty of things you could do. As for putting a timer or other limitations on the Town Portal, that could be a possible fix, but most likely easily exploitable.

- Mini-Stops could also be used as temporary sanctuaries, in that while you're in one you will not be attacked. Though this means you can't attack other things while inside thus exploiting it, but it would provide the same protection as a town.

However since it is a mini-stop and not a town you will only gain access to limited services.

Easy fix.

I still think that it is best to ask "What if I couldn't do this?" in terms of developing new game mechanics.

[Renevent]

The point is, at least for me (and a few other people based on this and the other thread) is there is nothing to fix here, and absolutely no reason to remove it.

I still think that it is best to ask "What if I couldn't do this?" in terms of developing new game mechanics.

Arbitrarily picking mechanics and asking "what if I couldn't do that" doesn't seem like a very good way of designing game mechanics at all. I think it's best to ask "what could I do better, what did people not like, and what didn't work at all".

[Malpheas]

So maybe there's an impetus to come up with a solution to potions? Perhaps being able to learn how to make them yourself? Like a recipe?


Aside -

To add: Sacred did not have town portals. Not that, it's been mentioned here. It had a retarded alternate mechanic: Ctrl + Left click to someone on your party to join them where they are.

The one advantage to Sacred I & II was that there were merchants EVERYWHERE. The solution players came up with was to place themselves close to portal locations and when they got too far away from that they would wait for someone in the party to get to a place they wanted and port to them. This was responsible for a lot of the world not being explored; at least not by me. As well, would Sacred be "Sandbox"y?

Cheers,

Imp

I still think that it is best to ask "What if I couldn't do this?" in terms of developing new game mechanics.

I think this is completely valid, but the consensus so far has been to keep town portals because the apparent posting majority likes them, vs.,well... you. Something else you have to consider. And the only really valid reason you have stated so far is: "It cuts down my killing time."

- Health Orbs - Yes Health orbs, whether or not you agree with them, they are the future...

I'd also like to point out is that this is you pidgeon-holing yourself contrary to the previous quote I used. Why is it only health orbs? Can it be something else?

[Scryer]

Even liking a mechanic is not the best reason to implement it. Maybe it is only liked because it was so much required that the player had to use it, and thus over time and repeated usage of the same mechanic in many games this causes the player to believe that it is part of the genre.

However, a genre is not defined solely but it's in-game mechanics, it's defined by the way it is built. There were many differences between TQ and Diablo 1, Diablo 2 and now Torchlight. Each game played differently, but they were all ARPG. Town portals alone did not define this genre. Diablo did, and just because Diablo 2 had them does not mean that they were necessary or required to develop the game as an ARPG.

I don't think town portals are a death sentence, but I do believe that they inhibit the developer from forming new game mechanics.

Way points, and check points are both fine to me.

[Malpheas]

Even liking a mechanic is not the best reason to implement it. Maybe it is only liked because it was so much required that the player had to use it, and thus over time and repeated usage of the same mechanic in many games this causes the player to believe that it is part of the genre.

That is the crux of this entire conversation. The other side is, does something that works well need a change? Why?

Maybe if some of the devs feel like the portal mechanic needs a change for whatever reason... we'd be lucky enough to suggest something valid.

[Scryer]

I'd also like to point out is that this is you pidgeon-holing yourself contrary to the previous quote I used. Why is it only health orbs? Can it be something else?

Nope, it's not a pigeon hole, actually you bring up a good point, and I agree, why should health orbs be used? what else could be used? Do you have an answer?

I suggested health orbs because they are easy to understand, concise and they help lessen the need for health potions.

What other mechanic could take the place of health orbs, other then potions? You tell me and make it a suggestion.

[ASYLUM101]

IMO, out of battle regen is one of the best ideas ever. :) Like what guild wars had. THAT worked great, and couldn't really be exploited.

[Renevent]

Even liking a mechanic is not the best reason to implement it.

It's not? Seems to me if lots of people like something and enjoy it thats a perfect reason of including a particular mechanic.

Maybe it is only liked because it was so much required that the player had to use it, and thus over time and repeated usage of the same mechanic in many games this causes the player to believe that it is part of the genre.

Well, I can tell you that for me personally that couldn't be further from the truth.

I suggested health orbs because they are easy to understand, concise and they help lessen the need for health potions.

And that's assuming people feel there's a need to lessen the need for health potions. Personally, I like health potions...I like having control over that aspect. I also like the improvement TQ made of D2 in the fact it put health potions on a timer...so you couldn't spam them. And I think this was made even better in the Underlord mod by putting it on an even longer timer making battles more dangerous. I really hate health orbs in other games I played, like Too Human. It made it feel random and sometimes surving was pure luck because you were lucky enough that health dropped from a mob.

[Malpheas]

Out of battle regen is a cool idea. Sacred did this well, but also included potions. Sacred also had in battle regen that was increased when you were out of battle.

@ Scryer, I pointed out a pigeon (pidgeon, whatever, for some reason I've been spelling it that way for as long as I care to remember) hole because you seemed so adamant about health orbs as the way of the future. There was a certain irony.

You're right though about suggestions.

How about keeping potions - but make them increase your regen of life and not quick? You're bound to become exhausted sooner or later and the regen cannot go faster than a minimal amount. That way you have to be more aware of your life.

[Vox Nihili]

Out of battle regen is a cool idea. Sacred did this well, but also included potions. Sacred also had in battle regen that was increased when you were out of battle.

@ Scryer, I pointed out a pigeon (pidgeon, whatever, for some reason I've been spelling it that way for as long as I care to remember) hole because you seemed so adamant about health orbs as the way of the future. There was a certain irony.

You're right though about suggestions.

How about keeping potions - but make them increase your regen of life and not quick? You're bound to become exhausted sooner or later and the regen cannot go faster than a minimal amount. That way you have to be more aware of your life.

I think it's a combination of two things:

1) We've got a thread just below this one right now, where a fair number of people are really up in arms because it doesn't make sense to have nats dropping swords. Does it make any more sense to think that your character can lug around a hundred potions and chug them instantly while simultaneously fending off hordes of skeletons? Not really. It's a rather silly idea if you stop to thing about it.

2) All we need is some way to recover health. It has been done better than potions. Skills and out-of-combat regeneration spring to mind, but health orbs might work, too (I tend to dislike the randomness of drops for healing). Life leech could work. Or maybe some hybrid, like having characters be durable enough to take some abuse without perpetually inhaling potions.

Personally, I just don't want a repeat of TQ, where I install a mod so I can stack potions to 100, so I can buy hundreds at the store, and spend the entire game mashing the potion button as fast as it'll let me.

[Renevent]

Personally, I just don't want a repeat of TQ, where I install a mod so I can stack potions to 100, so I can buy hundreds at the store, and spend the entire game mashing the potion button as fast as it'll let me.

Well, TQ had a timer for potions...although I think the cooldown was a bit too quick.

What you said regarding the random-ness of orbs is right on though. The only other ARPG I have played with health orbs is Too Human and it was so frustrating at times...having to rely completely on luck at times to survive is a wonky ARPG mechanic. I think things you can build and plan on are better suited.

[TheRani]

I recall some reviewer giving TQ a lousy score because he didn't read the manual and thought there was no means of teleporting back to town. He thought it was tedious having to keep running back to the previous town to sell things, and had that actually been the case, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with the guy. I also expect that a whole lot of other reviewers would have given it a lower score for that, too. That kind of thing will make a lot of people less likely to buy the game, when they read about how annoying it was for all these reviewers to have to run back to the last town to sell things, instead of just using some sort of magic to go back.

If a setting has magic anyway, I have zero problems with characters being able to buy a scroll that can open a portal to somewhere. Even in a sci-fi setting, I'd have no problems with teleportation pads being in various locations along the way that can take you where you want to go (presumably the people of the future would have some practical means of getting from place to place). Even in a relatively realistic modern setting, it should be possible to hail a taxi or something. In real life, we have transportation we can use to go where we please, assuming we have sufficient money to pay for it. Why should we not have such in a game?

[Iceciro]

Do not remove the portal system in Grim Dawn! One of the most memorable features of TQ for me, was the use of the portals in multiplayer, especially when the group was looking for something (and tough enough to split down into two parties of two and advance slowly). The ability to sell stuff back in town when I want, and come back and kill more things, repeat, is actually one of my favorite features of games like this.

Hell, take it a step further and make a magical steam-powered chest that acts like Torchlight's pet and will sell stuff for me, only let it be able to bring back potions when I tell it to. Then I don't have to stop killing ever :)

[Scryer]

When it comes to health orbs, I'm not saying they should remove health potions - I'm saying they should be used in conjunction.

Also, further, when it comes to town portals, there are other ways to go back to town that could be implemented.

- Way points that let you travel to town and back.

- Check points where you spawn if you happen to die.

Also, different types of potions or scrolls that can help the player in battle, that have a temporary buff.

[Iceciro]

Scryer, all of those points don't do what the portal system did - namely, allow quick and seamless multiplayer party forming/playing without having to find out who's were, did I log out near a waypoint, oh I died what was the last checkpoint I had, now how do I get to the party...

Titan Quest's portal system was perfect in that respect.

Also, I absolutely hate in a loot-based game, especially one like this where I'll be able to break down materials, leaving loot lying around because I am carrying too much and there's no easy way to get back to a town.

As for potions? I'm indifferent. I think Titan Quest's potion fest would've been greatly helped by having them on a much longer cooldown, so the solution to any fight wasn't "Buy more potions".

[Scryer]

Check points are Auto-saves, you get auto-saved to the check point area, when you die you return to that area, you do not return to town.

Way points could easily have an additional function - Port to party member.

This would allow you to always be with your friends.

Therefore the friend does not have to open a town portal just so you can join them.

[Iceciro]

I still know from personal experience the one feature my friends and I comment on wishing other games had as we play them is "man, I wish we had Titan Quest's portal system". And I would be very sad to see it go in the game that's not just the spiritual successor, but uses the same engine!

[Sandirk]

as an alternative for potions you could have something like a campfire set up.

out of combat you can have a campfire and cook food that would give a stat buff for a half hour or so but also have rapid regen for mana and health.

having it that someone could port to an active campfire would also help the forming of parties.

as far as portals go, im sure i have seen somewhere on here they are looking at having end of victorian era technologly .. so trains and a railway system could replace the portal system for quick travel. there would be plenty of places that you could jump on the train and port you, you just need to be in proximity to the railway tracks.

for saftey for when RL interupts game play .phone call etc having a instant cast ward that can basically pause you but leave everyone else to carry on may work?

[Renevent]

Action roleplaying game...no roasting marshmallows lol...

[Sandirk]

there alway a place for marshmellows :D

[yerkyerk]

A horse carriage would look cool :)
One with six black horses..

[ASYLUM101]

This isn't Risen!!!

:P

I like the idea, but like Renevant said, not very good for an ARPG.

A train system would be kinda cool, or how about balloon travel?
(btw Renevant, I always thought your nick was Revenant....)

[Chameleon]

I hate potion cooldown, it has cost me many a death in TQ. I wish there was no cooldown for health potions, it is one of the things I hope they change for GD

[yerkyerk]

I was actually hoping the entire potion system would be overhauled..
Potions cause balance issues - they're perhaps making the game harder than it should be. One shot kills aren't necessary if it wasn't for potion spamming. But with potionspamming and without one shit kills, you're practically invincible.

[Scryer]

Health orbs + Potions (with a cooldown) help the developer design encounters around skill, not just (the Player could spam this potion a million times while the boss tries to 1 shot you.)

Instead there would be a fluid interaction of the player using potions when he/she has to and health orbs at every other moment.

I also suggested temporary Buff Scrolls and Buff Potions that could aid you in battle as well.

[Phuncz]

I'm also a firm believer that spamming potions is not the way to go, but totally removing the ease of mind that is the Town Portal, is going too far. Many good examples have been given why NOT to drop them, only one has been given why it should be: increasing the tension. There are millions of ways to do that, but removing Town Portal just for the sake of innovation is illogical.

[ASYLUM101]

But with potionspamming and without one shit kills, you're practically invincible.

lolwut? one shit kills?

[Renevent]

And why do people keep saying potion spamming? There's on a cooldown in TQ and that can be increased too. I thought the guys behind Underlord did a good job balancing the cooldown.

And health orbs suck...play Too Human too see why. Not saying Too Human is a bad game...but when your health recovery is determined by luck that's a crappy system.

[Chameleon]

I was actually hoping the entire potion system would be overhauled..
Potions cause balance issues - they're perhaps making the game harder than it should be. One shot kills aren't necessary if it wasn't for potion spamming. But with potionspamming and without one shit kills, you're practically invincible.

Whats wrong with being invincible?:confused:

Thats the whole point of playing the game, to be invincible and beat everything to a pulp.

[LeStryfe79]

Town portals and over abundant potions are old hat. They don't really feel like quality gameplay mechanics to me. Imagine for a moment these same mechanics being built into similar games....

1. In Madden the other day, I was able to town portal back to the 3rd quarter and buy a few more timeouts. That really saved my bacon!

2. In Call of Duty, I was really in over my head when I foolhardily rushed the enemy and got surrounded by snipers. Luckily the 99 potions I brought with me enabled me to see it through to the end. :)

3. In GTA5, I hope they give us sewer portals to allow us to easily escape the fuzz and return to our sweet, fully stocked garages!

4. The newest Mario was totally innovative with its warp zone in a can!(I know I'm just being stupid here)

5. In Borderlands I, er wait nevermind...That game doesn't deserve this comparison, since its an Action RPG that didn't fall back on outdated conventions...

As for me calling the other games similar? Well, they are all games with elements of action and roleplaying. They are games that have evolved over the years to maintain a level of quality(for the most part). Some things are better left in the past and have nothing to do with the genre it came from. I mean, just because I liked crack when I was 22 didn't mean it was a good idea, right? I'm sorry, but many of us have moved on, and those that haven't won't know until they've tried a quality alternative. Stats, loot, and fast paced action are the only true untouchables of a good ARPG.

[Renevent]

Half of those didn't even make sense (Madden? WTFBBQ?)...and the one that did, Borderlands, well it's a different type of game with it's own HUGE flaws. Forget portals, how about chests in friendly towns that grant more and better quality loot than the end boss.

Borderlands is a really fun game for what it is, but please don't flaunt it as some game that has "evolved" and should be looked to for gameplay suggestions. In fact, as an ARPG it's just about the most shallow one released in ages.

[Malpheas]

We've got a thread just below this one right now, where a fair number of people are really up in arms because it doesn't make sense to have nats dropping swords. Does it make any more sense to think that your character can lug around a hundred potions and chug them instantly while simultaneously fending off hordes of skeletons? Not really. It's a rather silly idea if you stop to thing about it.

Actually.. the nat's thing was me. lol Besides, with nats, they aren't up in arms... they're up in MILLIONS of arms. (For a fog o' nats, dat is.)

How about stances then?

Increase one aspect, such as defence and reduce another aspect, such as offence. This could extend to healing as well, off centre to make certain qualities a little better. Pay something for something else.

So for healing, it would be reduced offence and whatever else for healing while out of battle. Besides, with potions: what about potion poisoning? Man, and peeing! Where does it all go?!?!

Cheers,

Malph

[Scryer]

First of all, I have to re-iterate on my previous position. Why town portals should be removed or at least very limited or restricted - I have already given many suggestions on how to remove them effectively and in fact improve the # of game-play mechanics in the game, and thus over-all player enjoyment. However, there were some counter-arguments and even counter-solutions given that I must address before we continue to discuss this topic.

One of the counter-arguments was that it was a quick an easy way to return to town to put an item in your stash for later use. Lets explore this option, does it provide the player a useful benefit? yes it does, the player can decide at anytime to go to town and place objects in his stash.

However, a more reasonable thing to do would be allowing the player to enter his stash while out in the field where action is taking place. I had suggested "Mini-Stops" that acts as miniature breaks if the player so-chooses to use them. At one of these stops the player would have access limited to a Vendor, their Stash (that would require a small fee to enter), and a sanctuary. While the character is in this sanctuary he would be free of disruptions from enemies and could trade with other players. While in these mini-stops the player would not be able to attack the enemy and the enemy would not be able to attack the player (and the enemies would "reset" to their original positions.)

Another objection to removing town portals was that they allow quick access to a friend who is already in battle. I agree that they do, however I countered that objection with a simplified and useful waypoint system. Waypoints are a quick way of traveling from A to B, normally a town to an exterior area. I said that the developers could use the Way points found around the game world as a way to teleport to your friends, this would allow you to always be with your fellow party members and further cut the need for town portals.

Another objection that was raised is the death system - if when you die you always appear in town how will you get back in action? That is a valid reason to keep town portals, however my previous suggestion has countered this objection. Further I do not agree that you should appear in town when you die - I think a better system would be to create a system of check points that allow you to quickly get back into action. Check points would be more common then way points. Also if you use my idea of "Mini-Stops" and add a mini-stop at each check point you give the player a way to trade/chat with friends while being close to the area of action.

Finally, I also suggested Health orbs, scrolls, and Potions (with a cool down) as a way to increase the strategy that the player has to over-come the enemy with. All manner of Health potions and Buff potions and Scrolls should drop from the enemy, these will aid the adventurer in battle. I do not agree that these items should be sold to the player - the player should use them when he has them and use them strategically. I don't believe health potions should be sold either, these are items that should be worth while to the player, but since Health orbs exist in the game the player will not always need a potion and will only use them in dire times due to their cool down.

The benefits of removing town portals are two-fold, they give the developer a break, that is that monsters do not need to be super-tough. They can lower the damage that monsters do knowing that you have health orbs and potions to help you out when you're in trouble and knowing that you my not always have both. It also helps them by letting them know that you do not have a "Get out of jail" free card in your pocket. If portals were to be implemented it would cause 2 possible things, if all players could use this portal, and they continue to exist no matter which player uses them (that is, player 1 uses a town portal and player 2 can go through it unlimited times) this would cause a break in action that is not necessary. It would allow the player to attack and retreat. Blocking players from using each others portals and putting a sever cool down (say 15-20 minutes) on the portal would eliminate this problem.

If a player needs to escape battle during a boss fight, it might be useful to give that player a portal to town with a heavy cool down on it, and blocking other players from entering his town portal might be a solution to the unlimited attack and retreat option for the other players. This is another solution that could be implemented for a player that would have something going on during an event like a boss challenge. However I'm mostly suggesting the removal or severe limitation of town portals. If boss battles are short then a town portal may not be necessary.
Other suggestions like not being able to use the town portal while "in combat" except in a boss battle would help this situation further.

So even if town portals are not removed, they should at least have their access severely limited.

[Chameleon]

I understand what you are saying but I completely disagree with you. All the suggestions you have made would make the game less fun to me...and the whole point of playing games for me is to have fun. Its all a matter of personal opinion.

[Scryer]

It's true that is a matter of personal opinion however for the sack of debate I would prefer reason why it would make the game "unfun." and some good feed back as to what would make it unfun and not the same thing but played with different and more interesting mechanics.

[JackKerras]

I think that making potions a lengthy cooldown, adding health orbs and removing town portals are all bad ideas right on their own. That said, imagining an ARPG without these ideas is a good thing! How can we solve these annoying problems?

For potions, make them drinkable anytime. No cooldown; pound that button as fast as you want. Personally, I'm for spammable potions, but I'm -not- for spammable potions with no consequences.

Thus, every potion you take within a certain time sees diminishing returns. Let's say it applies a 10-second debuff that can stack up to 5 times. First drink is worth 100 health immediately with 200 over six seconds. Next drink, 80 immediately, 100 over six seconds. Next, 60/50. Next, 40/25. Next, 20/12. Then, you have a full stack of five debuffs, and drinking potions has no effect until the ten seconds are over.

This creates a system that people have to get used to and make decisions with. Spend 10 gold for 100 health and 200 HoT, or 20 gold for 180 and 300? The more you drink, the less efficient, but you might die if you drink too little. This is a game mechanic, not a heal with a cooldown, and I think it'd be a more interesting system than just 'you don't get to drink for 6 seconds now'.

For the record, I'm biased against health orbs. I'm not sure what Blizzard are thinking with those in Diablo 3, but I'm not that worried about it. I just have no love of systems that require luck, and I tend to figure that once you're out of a fight, you shouldn't have to stand around and wait to get your health back for more than a little while. I'm not going to answer to those just now; I think the potion system mentioned above, as well as possibly a regen system that picks up nicely when out of combat, would fill that gap nicely.

On to portals. I like portals just fine. Moving around the gameworld at speed is really nice; Sacred's horses didn't do it for me, and it seems like Titan Quest's refill-free portal stone worked very nicely. I'm hoping for a return to the system, myself; if TQ were more like Demon's Souls, I'd say absolutely, no town portals, but it isn't like Demon's Souls. Having a game of this kind without them doesn't mean more tension, it just means more -walking-.

That said, one could conceivably open up temporary portals between two points (having an orange and blue portal stone), rather than only between 'Here' and 'Town'. Still, this carries its own issues; I'm not sure it's worth exerting more design strength in this section 'cuz it seems silly to not just use the system that works.

There's a point whereat the old adage 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' comes into play, and portals are one of those points. Especially since hardcore gamers, folks who LIKE that kind of unforgiving difficulty and such, are, what... five percent of us?

[Scryer]

First of all, potion spamming in and of itself, no matter how you vary it (with a debuff) is the exact same mechanic as a game that allows you to potions spam without a debuff. It is even the same as a game that puts a cool down on the potion itself - you're not really thinking about strategy when you spam a potion, you're looking at your health bar because you have to. The debuff you mentioned could be applied alongside Health orbs and make for much more interesting game-play.

Health orbs are a good solution to this because they allow you to decide when you want to use a potion or when you want to pick up a health orb - most of the time you'll be picking up health orbs, and using health potions when there are non-around. However Health orbs as a mechanic allow the developer to create enemies that do intrinsically less damage. This would allow them to focus on enemies that do different types of attacks, to slow you down, with ice, poison you, trap you, or simply be in the way. You would have many options to win these fights.

In fact the developer could create an encounter that requires you to use the assets you're given. There are several suggestions I gave that would allow the player to enjoy his game-play and not be beaten back due to lack of health potions. That is, Buff scrolls, and Buff potions, which are temporary, that could be used during an encounter in interesting and fun ways. These other buff potions and items would be used in place of a health potion (separate cool down) and allow for far more interesting and fun game-play.

More options generally makes a game more interesting, because you can choose your strategy anyway you like. These types of games, that have enhancing mechanics, are the ones that the market will recognize as innovative. Just because town portals have been in every ARPG game (almost) does not mean they are necessary or required to make the game fun and interesting. A game should instill a sense of danger, most ARPG's have failed in that respect, what's the danger of dying when my friend can port me to his location? What's the point of dying if a portal is up right next to my corpse? (I don't believe there should be corpse hunting in this game or any other ARPG, it is not fun or necessary to make a game fun).

There are plenty of ways as I have shown that make portals to town less important in the game, everything I have suggested is a game mechanic that could make this game feel more interesting to play. Allowing portals, I think is okay, only in severely limited aspect.

- Other players can not enter them (Way Points that let you port to friends help this)

- They have a long cool-down and 1 time use per cool down. I suggested 20+ minutes.

I ask you and anyone why is danger wrong to have in a game? First person shooters are a completely different genre yet you are allowed to feel danger. I don't believe convenience is the only reason to keep a mechanic in the game, especially if it is intrinsically un-balanced. Danger should be part of the ARPG genre, and free town portals take this feeling away at all times. Danger is a feeling that one should feel when they enter a normal cave in real life, it is good to have these feelings while playing a game, it is fun for the player. That is why first person shooters are so successful.

First of all, in an Action RPG you should focus on the Action and then the RPG. Action is the main reason people play the game, RPG elements are secondary to that. Mostly because role-playing is not always seen in people that play while they are in action. Secondly, by adding free portals at all times it breaks immersion and stops the player from feeling like they could have played any strategy. Free portals imply that the easiest strategy is - return to town when I run out of potions. This is not fun and does break immersion.

Once again, with Health orbs and with health potions, buff scrolls and buff potions the strategy turns from - "return to town when I run out of potions" to "What type of buff scroll / buff potions could I use, and do I need that health orb now, and there are no health orbs, but wait I have health potions and buff potions and scrolls!"

This alone is a far more fun game to play both intellectually and strategically.

[Phuncz]

Maybe analysing the problem is not the solution, but analysing the cause of the problem is. Why do we ram those number keys so badly ? In D2 because you would come across an enemy or boss that would almost 1-hit kill you. D2 was very unforgiving in that aspect and you HAD to spam potions. TQ also had this problem, although less surprising. If a massive boss was walking towards you, you'd know you could get an ass kicking and you'd keep your distance. In D2, a stupid small rat with an elemental counterattack could one-hit kill you.

There is nothing wrong with town portals, you just see them as a way to promote potion spamming. The problem is that in some games, people NEED these potions. In Torchlight, only the first few levels I needed to buy potions. The rest of the game I found enough on the floor and from items. The use of potions is standard in an ARPG game, spamming D2 style is not luckily. But throwing town portals out because you hate that other players do it, is just personal annoyances and not necessarily the opinion of most gamers.

[Malpheas]

There is nothing wrong with town portals, you just see them as a way to promote potion spamming. <snip> But throwing town portals out because you hate that other players do it, is just personal annoyances and not necessarily the opinion of most gamers.


That is what people have been telling him for the last X pages... He's still arguing that his viewpoint should be other's. I believe they call that trolling, in a sense, for contrary opinions.

[Scryer]

The problem is that in some games, people NEED these potions. In Torchlight, only the first few levels I needed to buy potions. The rest of the game I found enough on the floor and from items. The use of potions is standard in an ARPG game, spamming D2 style is not luckily. But throwing town portals out because you hate that other players do it, is just personal annoyances and not necessarily the opinion of most gamers.

No, I do not "hate town portals" or even the people that agree with them, I simply see them as unnecessary for the game genre. Once again, I have brought up many solutions to the idea that the player "needs" health potions, and actually many mechanics that could be introduced to solve the dependency of health potions.

I'm trying to have a debate, not troll, a troll does not care for inquiry. I want people to try and write a reasoned response, one that makes sense to the reader, simply stating your own opinion is okay however it does not make a reasoned argument and does not foster a healthy debate.

I have already said that other gaming genre's do not so maliciously take away a since of danger like the ARPG genre. Yet danger is a feeling that is okay to have in a game like a first person shooter, yet it is still not okay to have in an ARPG?

Well, let me say this, why is it a reasonable argument to say that, because other games have done this in the past, that the genre as a whole should continue to do this? Why is this mechanic useful for the game genre as a whole, and have any of the solutions discussed in this thread helped change that paradigm?

I understand not everyone agrees with me, however, no one has reasoned to me why that is. Your opinion is important in any debate, but opinion alone does not help foster healthy inquiry.

[LeStryfe79]

Health and Portals could be more fun if they just randomly appeared. That would add another "jackpot" element to a genre that thrives on it.

[Iceciro]

Honestly, I could see reasons for pulling potions - one of which being that putting stat points into health and defense becomes more important.

However, they do provide a bit of an "oh hell, what did I just get myself into" safety net for encounters that are just too tough and you need to RUN. That's why I would like them on a long cooldown - or at least for most classes to have short term tanking or sudden escape skills, if there are no potions.

And I think regardless, they need to be on a much longer cooldown than TQ. I really shouldn't be able to gulp more than one potion in the time it takes me to mow through a few non-boss spawns. Potions shouldn't make up for taking a defensive class.

[Phuncz]

I understand not everyone agrees with me, however, no one has reasoned to me why that is. Your opinion is important in any debate, but opinion alone does not help foster healthy inquiry.
That's because it's not the answer you want I guess, many reasons have already been given why potions and town portals should stay. Multiple times.

[myrmidon]

gotta disagree with this trips to town are the best. health potions are the best health orbs suck...you cant heal your self if you cant kill the guy.....and plus your just copying torch light with that mercenary......instead of a dog

[Scryer]

First of all, what game hasn't been a copy of something that other games or board games have already come up with?

Coming up with something original is not easy and if you do come up with something original then how do you know it will be fun in practice?

Using what works is always the best option, but most of my suggestions at least are something that have been fun in previous games. In my opinion they have been fun.

[TECHNOmancer]

I support the idea of having a longer cooldown timer for potions. I also support the suggestion of having decreasing returns for using potions in quick succession.

Increasing the prominence and/or utility of scrolls or temporary buffs is a great idea. One thread on titanquest.net was centered on the question or whether or not players bothered to use scrolls for anything other than ingredients for creating artifacts. Unfortunately, the overwhelming response was 'no'. Grim Dawn could potentially fix this issue and better incorporate these items into combat strategy. Using a couple of short-term buffs as an offset to a longer potion cooldown timer would add some more flavor to in-battle resource management.

Insofar as portals are concerned, I like how Divine Divinity and TQ handled them. In fact, Divine Divinity allowed the player a bit more freedom in that both of the stones were portable, therefore one wasn't permanently linked to a town location. I think it's clear that there is popular support for portals remaining in the game, and the genre for that matter. I agree. In order to limit them as a last-ditch escape method for an encounter gone wrong, the game could limit the use of portal stones in certain areas or encounters. A boss could utilize a magic-dampening aura that prevents the use of a portal stone. Similarly, perhaps being deep in a mine or cavern limits the effective range or use of a portal stone. Suffice it to say that there are many potential means of limiting the mechanic without removing it entirely.

I've got mixed feelings regarding health orbs. While it wouldn't bother me if these were implemented, the idea of depending on a random spawn to turn the tide in an intense -- or poorly planned -- encounter is unappealing to me.

Last, having to give more consideration to increasing a character's defense and health is a favorable consequence of reducing the efficacy of potions. I've got more than three dozen characters in TQ and never once have I been compelled to allocate attribute points to health, whether the character was a caster or a tank. I'd relish the opportunity to consider that option more seriously in Grim Dawn.

TECHNOmancer