My problem with sockets, gems, etc.

[Betrayer]

Hey, I want to talk about something that bothers me in Titan Quest (and in most ARPGs actually).

The issue is that when I put a rune (gem, etc.) on a weapon it changes my overall stats (dps, etc) and it changes the price of the weapon.

The problem with this is that once I upgrade an item, it makes it a lot harder to compare new items that I pick up.

The quickest way for me to compare items is by comparing their sell price at a vendor. If the new weapon is worth way more than my current one, it's usually safe to assume it's better. If they are close in value, then I will compare their attributes in detail to make my decision.

If my weapon has a powerful rune on it, I either have to take the rune off to compare the base items (which is impossible in TQ), or I have to subtract all the bonus attributes in my head. This can get very confusing when attributes have wildly different effects that are hard to compare quantitatively.


So, as a result I never used runes in TQ. I just stored them up to make artifacts.
To me, the benefit of putting a rune on my items just wasn't worth the headache and confusion when I'm comparing any new items I pick up.

I actually rarely bothered with runes and gems in Diablo 2 for this reason as well.


It wouldn't be bad if:

a) The runes were removable with no penalty, so I could just take them out in my inventory to compare items then put them back in.

b) I could somehow see my base character stats, without the runes included.

c) Some better, genius idea.



Maybe I'm one of few that considers this an "issue", but boy would I LOVE to see a solution in Grim Dawn.

[sevrun]

I don't know that I considered it much of an issue, but I never really got into the runes in Diablo 2 anyway and the gems were usually hit and miss for effectiveness in weapons (depending on what you were fighting) I got into it a bit more with TQ since they offered a greater variety of influences I could benefit from.

A) would leave things open to being abused in that people would pull it, get the new weapon and stick the relic/gem into the new weapon. So why keep collecting boar hide if I can just rip it off the old armor and lay it on the new?
B) Is an idea I can easily get behind, give it a listing of the item's base stats with the modifiers just off to one side (and the totals as well if you like) Seems it'd be as simple to code as the tooltips they use to offer side by side comparisons of gear already.

C) I'm always lookin for a stroke of genius myself.

[Betrayer]

A) would leave things open to being abused in that people would pull it, get the new weapon and stick the relic/gem into the new weapon. So why keep collecting boar hide if I can just rip it off the old armor and lay it on the new?


But you can do that in TQ: IT with the vendor that rips relics off your items (or items off your relics).


Anyway, I don't like having to make the decision to put my great relic on an item if I could never get it back.
I'd just end up hording all my relics, saving them for that AWESOME item.

[Scryer]

The best and only solution to this that I can think of, is just to have the Relic's stats separate from the item's stats, and only have everything added together on your character sheet, then whenever you look at an item it should always have a side-by-side comparison of the item with plus's and minus's of the base stats compared to your equipped item. If you follow any of that.

With that in mind you can pay the vendor to rip the relic out of the old weapon or item and then place it on your upgrade.

Obviously, you shouldn't be able to do this whole removing relics thing for free, that's just pointless.

[Betrayer]

But the character sheet is the important part. You can't just compare the item to the item.
When stats on an item are a percentage for example, one type of attribute could have a much bigger effect on your character sheet than the same amount of a different attribute.

So, you have to be able to see how the two base items will affect your overall character stats. AND you have to be able to see how the relic will affect you stats.

[Kardiophylax]

I've played a lot of games and never had a problem figuring out which weapon is better. It's the responsibility of the game to tell me what certain stats do so that I can make the determination. I don't see why you'd try to compare item quality by sell price. Certain items will fit certain builds better than others, regardless of if the item has a few more stat points allocated to it.

For instance, if I was going for a vitality damage build in TQ, an item with more vitality damage, or +% vitality damage, is obviously more valuable than a weapon without it, even if it does have slightly more physical damage or stats.

So you avoid using runes because it's too confusing to figure out? Really? If two items are so close in potential quality, then just try them both out or pick the one that is more aesthetically pleasing. If they aren't close in quality, it should be blatantly obvious and an easy decision. I don't understand the need to know which of 2 very similar items is + or - 2% better in quality/damage.

[Betrayer]

The price is just a very rough guide. I compare items by how it affects the stats on my character sheet.
Of course sometimes it's obvious which item is better for my build, but it's often not, and that's the very reason we have all these detailed stats on our character sheet.
If I have a powerful rune on my weapon that throws off all my character stats, then it becomes a lot harder to compare items.

I prefer to use stats to determine what item to use over testing, because there are a lot of variables and attributes that are not immediately obvious when you're whacking on monsters.

I like to compare by price, because it tells me what the quality of the attributes are. For example how does 15% chance to cast charged bolt compare to 3% life-steal?

I have no clue... It's apples to oranges.
That's where using the vendor price comes in handy (if all attributes are applicable to my build). That's also where using my character sheet comes in handy.

In fact it's also annoying that in TQ the value of your weapons maxes out depending on what act you're on, so you can no longer compare prices.

Like I said, I'm sure it's not an issue with everyone, but that's how I play.

The problem, Kardio, arrives when comparing these apple attributes to orange attributes.

[Gem]

Before reading this i thought, that i have bad days :D
Never saw guys attacked by monsters "NothingToWear" and "WhatLooksBetter".

Relic's stats already separated from item stats.

I like to compare by price, because it tells me what the quality of the attributes are. For example how does 15% chance to cast charged bolt compare to 3% life-steal?
Ingame price of attributes only view of makers. I can't remember where, but i saw ingame price on "useless" attribute was 3-4 times higher, than on "very cool". Maybe pure damage and %damage in TQ. Maybe in Diablo 2...

For your example - charged bolt - useless, 3% steal - too low. I know only in Median XL mode you can make Proc-characters, a lot items with a lot chances on them (50% ctc* per hit, 100% ctc* per hit...*=chance to cast) For Diablo good lifesteal become from 10-15%, afaik, as in TQ.
(Many times i beat the game with "suffering soul" artifact)

The only problem in suffixes is "Hunt, Wind, Bluff", but really never have to choise between them.

My tips for you:
Warrior
a)On weapon % damage overwhelming all. I think, "Rellentless X of Destroying" with Achilles/Arthemid is the best weapon in game
b)attack speed
c)resistances
d)life steal (becouse healing pots in tq really good. With Necrosis LS take first place)
e)Offense\Defense abilities (with "OMFG Batracheos have 120% DA") -Not for Bows. Bowyer must 1 click=1 kill.
Mage
a)+cast speed
b)-recharge
c)-mana cost
d)+skills
e)%element damage
f)Health+resistance+DA
For Summonners +skills will be first, health - second.
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BTW i can understand - my headache begin, when i try play 3D games as new settlers, worms 3d, or something like.